Steven D'Aprano writes: > > > Except Perl. > > > > Please don't. > > I don't think there is any need for that. No harm is done by a > little light-hearted banter relating to the rivalry between > programming language communities.
I don't disagree with that principle, just with the evaluation of the tone, and even that is the difference between rgb.txt's grey49 and grey51. Calling old-style Perl one-liners "line noise" I would count as "light-hearted banter". "All languages have something to teach us -- but let's be really careful about which parts of Perl we study" I would count as lighthearted *and* making the point that we have our own style, which is pretty close to diametrically opposed to the one-liners that Perl is so useful for. "We have nothing to learn from Perl" in context (IIRC, Perl had not been mentioned in this thread to that point, and definitely the emphasis was on C/C++ and Java) was gratuitous and extreme, pure trash talking. Which has its place.[1] I don't think it's unreasonable to request tone-down when it's gratuitous. And I did mean "request" -- I wouldn't follow up to the OP if he chose to disagree with me, even in public. Here I'm discussing a principle that is not absolute, just one I'd like to advocate, and your post gives me a chance. > Regardless of what virtues Perl may or may not have, in some ways the > philosophy behind Perl is dramatically opposed to that of Python. So make that point. Just do it better than I did above! :-) > We should be permitted to criticise other languages, Sure. > and even dismiss them as useless. That's another matter, slightly different, but it's an important difference. There was an excellent blog post a couple years ago on "Contempt Culture"[2]. I deny that Nick's comment was made out of contempt, but I have to suspect that past contemptuous utterances provided context for it. The point of the term "culture" is that the contempt becomes natural in context, and indetectable to the speaker, and many of the listeners. > Programming languages do not have the assumption of dignity owed to > human beings. No, but their users are quite capable of *taking* offense where none was offered to them. And nasty people are quite capable of quoting out of context, just to see you and him fight. After a lifetime of using those facts as an excuse for my own borderline insults[3], I've decided I like the much more friendly style of the Python dev lists. It's not that there's no conflict here, but generally the arguments are delivered in such a way that people stay calm throughout. > this is not a support group for people so lacking in self-esteem > that their self-image is equated to their choice of programming > language. Of course not. But are you aware that many women are of the opinion that the Python dev community is an uncomfortable place to hang out? I don't know why yet, but the women who have told me they feel that way are quite capable of holding their own in a battle of words and wits when they want to, so they could handle python-dev if they wanted to. With as few reviewers as we have, I would rather risk convincing a few participants I'm some sort of "PC fanatic" than risk chasing away the brain power of half the human race. No, I don't *know* that humorous dismissals of whole programming environments contribute to that alleged atmosphere. I don't even have full understanding of what the issue is, just that I respect the women who have mentioned it to me enough to consider their statements to be evidence (not "proof"). I don't claim to have anything more than personal preference, and a very vague hope for increased participation from a group I think is currently underrepresented here, behind my request this time. > I'm sorry that I've written more words defending Nick's throw-away two > word comment than you expended in lightly chastising him. I'm not. These are very difficult and subtle issues, and you've expressed an important point of view eloquently. And I am very aware that current subscribers of the list have the right to express themselves with such humor, at least as I understand the current list policy.[4] I just wish such expression would be avoided, and I like to think my wish is partly motivated by a certain amount of public-spirited-ness, and that said motivation is in response to a real issue. Steve Footnotes: [1] Cf. http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/rbarip.html, though nothing could be like that any more. ;-) [2] http://blog.aurynn.com/contempt-culture. I suspect it's not the origin of the term, but don't feel like digging further. [3] My out-and-out insults were generally committed with malice aforethought, in the expectation of getting as good as I gave.[1] [4] I suspect that if asked, Brett would sympathize with my preference, and if not asked directly, he would say nothing precisely because anything he says might be construed to be policy, and this isn't. But you'd have to ask him. :-) _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
