On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 2:54 PM Matt Arcidy <marc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, May 13, 2018, 11:28 Brendan Barnwell <brenb...@brenbarn.net> > wrote: > >> On 2018-05-13 04:23, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> > In my experience mathematicians put the given *before* the statement: >> > >> > Given a, b, c three sides of a triangle, then >> > >> > Area = sqrt(s*(s-a)*(s-b)*(s-c)) >> > >> > where s = (a + b + c)/2 is the semi-perimeter of the triangle. >> > >> > For the record, that is almost exactly what I wrote for a student >> > earlier today, and its not just me, it is very similar to the wording >> > used on both Wolfram Mathworld and Wikipedia's pages on Heron's Formula. >> > >> > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HeronsFormula.html >> > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_formula >> > >> > >> > Putting "given" after the expression is backwards. >> > I usually read the vertical bar "given" in set-builder notation: {x | 10 < x < 100, x is prime} Conditional probabilities, expectations, entropy, etc.: P(X | Y), E(X| Y), H(X | Y), And, the so-called "evaluation bar": https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/52651/what-is-the-name-of-the-vertical-bar-in-x21-vert-x-4-or-left-left In words, I agree that where is probably better in text because writing "given the gravitational constant G" puts the subject last, unlike "where G is the gravitational constant". However, the given proposal for Python is putting the subject first: "given x = y". >> Yes, but that's because we're ruling out the use of "where". At >> this >> point I would be fine with "snicklefritz" as the keyword. The point is >> that I want to put SOMETHING after the expression, and this is not at >> all unusual. See for instance Wikipedia pages on the Reimann zeta >> function >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_zeta_function#Definition), >> gravitation equation >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Newton%27s_theory_of_gravitation), >> and >> compound interest >> ( >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest#Mathematics_of_interest_rate_on_loans). >> >> If we have to use the word "given" even though the word mathematicians >> would use in that position is "where", that's not such a big deal. >> > > it is a big deal. postfix requires more cognitive load, we will have no > idea up front what's going on except for trivial exames. more givens, more > cognitive load. > > if you think spending that is fine for you, I can't argue, but to say it > doesn't matter isn't correct. > > 2.exames which get far worse for complex cases. left for the for can be > as complex.as.you wish. > 1: > [ x + y for t in range(10) ... ] > > 2: > x = 10 > y = 20 > [ x + y for t in range(10) ...] > > up till you read ... you have no idea there even will be a substitution. > The lower is even worse, you think you know, but then have to redo the > whole problem with new information. > > also : > mathematicians don't just put the _word_ "given", they put givens, things > that are known or assumed to be true. Axioms and definitions, where > definitions assign names to values. This is for formal arguements. > reassigning values is handled in post fix occasionally once it is clear > what x and y are. but that's not what we are talking about if the name > doesn't exist already. > Most (if not all) uses of the vertical are read as "given" and they all put the givens to the right of it. > > again, you want to use given, that's fine, but the math argument is wrong, > as is the "it doesn't matter" argument, assuming the current neurological > model for working memory continues to hold. > > Maybe the difference is small, especially after familiarity sets in, but > that doesn't mean the difference in load isn't there. it will only > increase for more complex statements with more givens. > >> >> -- >> Brendan Barnwell >> "Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no >> path, and leave a trail." >> --author unknown >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-ideas mailing list >> Python-ideas@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "python-ideas" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/python-ideas/CFuqwmE8s-E/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > python-ideas+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > _______________________________________________ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "python-ideas" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/python-ideas/CFuqwmE8s-E/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > python-ideas+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >
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