Hi again,
Steven's points and the "feeling" for `type` are very good and maybe the
problems I mentioned can be ramified. I therefore opened a new thread to find
out what the general public thinks about overwriting built-in functions such as
`type` here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lang.python/GjZ2hAS1Wyk
Thanks,
Michael
On Friday, November 23, 2012 10:08:06 AM UTC+1, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> Hi Steven,
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 23, 2012 6:41:35 AM UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:00:54 -0800, Michael Herrmann wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > We took the fact that naming our one function 'type' was so difficult to
>
> >
>
> > > name as an indicator that it may be trying to do too many things:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I don't think it is difficult to name at all.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > On the one hand, it allows you to enter plain text as in `type("Hello
>
> >
>
> > > World!")`;
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That would be called "typing".
>
>
>
> I agree that "typing" might be more common in this context. However, you also
> understand me when I say "enter".
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > on the other hand, it lets you press single keys,
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> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That would be called "typing".
>
>
>
> Here, I disagree. You "press" enter and you "press" ALT+TAB. You might be
> able to say "type ENTER" but that is much less common. Google agrees:
> http://bit.ly/10o8yAQ vs. http://bit.ly/WmVwyU.
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > possibly in combination with control keys as for instance in
>
> >
>
> > > `type(CTRL + 'a')`.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That would be called "prestidigitation".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Nah, just kidding. That would also be called "typing".
>
>
>
> Here too Google favours "press ctrl+a" over "type ctrl+a".
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
>
> > > We believe it won't normally be necessary to combine the two.
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> >
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> >
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> >
>
> > I can't imagine why you say that. You even go ahead and give a perfectly
>
> >
>
> > fine example of combining a control character with plain text.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I don't know what operating system you are using, but under Linux, people
>
> >
>
> > often use strings of regular characters mixed in with control- or alt-
>
> >
>
> > characters. E.g. I in the shell, I might type Alt-B Shift-' END Shift-'
>
> >
>
> > to jump backwards one word (Alt-B), insert a double quote mark (Shift-'),
>
> >
>
> > jump to the end of the line I am editing (END), and insert another double
>
> >
>
> > quote mark.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I didn't explain what I mean by "plain text". Your example
> could be implemented with the "press" from our proposal, as follows:
>
> press(ALT + 'B', '"', END, '"')
>
> What I meant when I said that "press" could not be used to enter plain text
> was that it would not be possible to enter a sequence of multiple normal
> letters enclosed in single quotes, as in
>
> press("Hello World")
>
> If in your example you had wanted to add more than just a single character to
> the beginning or end of the line, this means you would have to write
>
> press(ALT + 'B')
>
> enter("beginning of line")
>
> press(END)
>
> enter("end of line")
>
> I agree that the following would read better here:
>
> press(ALT + 'B')
>
> type("beginning of line")
>
> press(END)
>
> type("end of line")
>
> However like Google above, I would disagree with
>
> type(ALT + 'B')
>
> type("beginning of line")
>
> type(END)
>
> type("end of line")
>
> or even
>
> type(ALT + 'B' + "beginning of line" + END + "end of line")
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It is a needless restriction to assume that every control character must
>
> >
>
> > only be part of a single key press event. I even remember a Mac
>
> >
>
> > application back in the early 1990s or late 1980s that used combinations
>
> >
>
> > like Ctrl-A Y to perform commands. (Actually, such older Macs didn't have
>
> >
>
> > a Control key, they used Command instead, but the principle is the same.)
>
> >
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> >
>
> >
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> >
>
> >
>
> > > One of the main goals of our automation product is that using it should
>
> >
>
> > > feel like giving instructions to a human being looking over their
>
> >
>
> > > shoulder at a screen.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > In a word processor, I might say
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > "Type Ctrl-A Ctrl-X to cut all the text from the document."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > rather than
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> >
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> >
>
> >
>
> > "Press Ctrl-A. Now press Ctrl-X."
>
> >
>
>
>
> With the current proposal, it'd be
>
> press(CTRL + 'A', CTRL + 'X')
>
> Forgetting about `type` vs `press` for a moment, chaining the key
> combinations like this is OK, isn't it?
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > We really quite like the word `type`, and a few people here seem to
>
> >
>
> > > favour it too. In particular, Steven: We're glad you accidentally
>
> >
>
> > > clicked on our mail. Thank you for your inputs and the great quote by
>
> >
>
> > > Phil Karlton. We think you were right in everything you said. However,
>
> >
>
> > > some people seem to be *really* put off when you override a built-in
>
> >
>
> > > function. Even though of course you can avoid the overriding by saying
>
> >
>
> > > from automa.api import type *as* ...,
>
> >
>
> > > (as Tim pointed out) we'd like to avoid irritating those people. For
>
> >
>
> > > this reason, we would rather not use `type`.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You need to ask yourself, who is your primary audience for your software?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Is it ... ?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > a) non-technical people who aren't very familiar with Python, and might
>
> >
>
> > not even know that there is a built-in function also called "type", or
>
> >
>
> > care if they do know;
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > b) Python programmers who have embraced the concept of namespaces and
>
> >
>
> > have no fear about x.foo clashing with y.foo;
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > c) Python programmers with a superstitious dread of using any name which
>
> >
>
> > is not global unique, just in case somebody accidentally shadows one
>
> >
>
> > function "foo" with another function "foo".
>
> >
>
>
>
> I agree that this is an important question to ask. however we unfortunately
> cannot answer it yet. We think our software should be usable by people from
> all three groups, but which group will use it the most we don't know yet.
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I think it is downright silly to avoid using the descriptive and simple
>
> >
>
> > name "type" out of some superstition against re-using names which have
>
> >
>
> > been used elsewhere, even in the builtins.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If it were possible to be confused by the two types, e.g. if they took
>
> >
>
> > the same arguments but did radically different things, then I would
>
> >
>
> > accept that it was too dangerous/confusing to re-use the name. Reasonable
>
> >
>
> > fears about shadowing and confusion are, well, reasonable. But nobody is
>
> >
>
> > going to confuse your use of type as a command:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > type(some_string)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > with the built-in use as a function
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > if type(something) is list:
>
> >
>
> > MyClass = type(x, y, z)
>
>
>
> Actually, when I first read your example, I was confused. I guess it's
> because the two different meanings of `type` were so close together I still
> had the first in mind when encountering the second. Nevertheless, it did
> confuse me.
>
>
>
> That's actually a key point: You are not confused or irritated by giving
> `type` a new meaning, and you have very valid reasons why. However, several
> people we asked in other places were surprised or irritated. You have very
> good points, but we won't get a chance to explain them to these other users
> when they first see our API. As the API designers, we have to try to find a
> solution that's acceptable for most people, and will therefore not be perfect
> for everyone.
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I don't think there is any point in having two functions that do exactly
>
> >
>
> > the same thing. Expect your users to develop all sorts of superstitions
>
> >
>
> > like "you can only use press() with a single key at a time", and get
>
> >
>
> > confused as to when you are supposed to use enter() and when press() (for
>
> >
>
> > whatever names you eventually choose).
>
> >
>
>
>
> I agree that it's not good to have two functions do exactly the same thing.
> However, it also has to be pointed out that it's not good for one function to
> do too many things. An example like
>
> type(ALT + 'B' + "beginning of line" + END + "end of line")
>
> imho tries to do too much in one go. With things like this, that you could
> not forbid with having only one function `type` that does everything, you
> would soon run into problems like "does it now press ALT all the time, or
> just for the first 'B'? Then your syntax/API pretty quickly explodes and you
> end up having to add some form of bracketing, escape sequences etc etc.
> That's something the splitting should hopefully avoid.
>
>
>
> Again, it's a long(ish) mail, and that's because it's very interesting to
> bounce our ideas off of you. Thank you for giving us a chance to do this!
>
>
>
> Michael
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