On Friday, August 22, 2014 1:45:23 AM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 8/21/2014 12:50 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Ben Finney wrote:
> >> Everything You Need To Know writes:
> >>> I guess I have to agree and was mistaken, though vitriol I found
> >>> unnecessary and unproductive!
> >> You've behaved obnoxiously, as has been pointed out.
> > People can point out anything they like, it does not mean it is necessarily
> > so. Adam ("Everything You Need To Know") has perhaps posted unwisely and
> > clumsily, but obnoxiously?
> > Obnoxious (noun):
> > very offensive; hateful; odious; reprehensible.
> > What did Adam do that was *obnoxious*? Here are some of the accusations
> > thrown at him:
> > - his "fancy" video is too simple for the "skilled Python programmers" at
> > this forum and is "barely original";
> > - he posted using a "self-aggrandising name" instead of his "real name";
> > - he posted a link to another website (oh the horror!!!);
> > - his post is "spam" (commercial, unsolicited advertising);
> > - he posted as a member of a group instead of an individual.
> > And that's pretty much it.
> > I reject any suggestion that Adam's post is "obnoxious" or that it is spam.
> > It is clearly on-topic. Frankly, I am ashamed at the closed-minded
> > hostility demonstrated here in this thread. Ben, I believe that your
> > behaviour goes against the spirit of the Python Community Code of Conduct,
> > if not the actual letter of CoC. Can you honestly say that you have been
> > Open, Considerate, and Respectful in telling Adam that his post
> > was "obnoxious" and that his post is "not appropriate" just because it is
> > hosted on YouTube?
> > This is supposed to be a welcoming place. Does anyone think we as a
> > community have been welcoming to Adam?
> > - We jumped down his throat for a couple of minor social faux pas, like
> > failing to sign his post with a name.
> > - We displayed the most odious double-standards: we attacked Adam for
> > posting on behalf of a group, but when members of the PSF or the Python
> > core developers make an announcement or post speaking for those groups, we
> > accept their right to do so without question.
> > - We allow long-time community members to link to external forums, we accept
> > them including links to their own blogs and websites, but accused Adam of
> > being a spammer because he linked to an on-topic video hosted on YouTube.
> > - We've made the most egregious and unjustified generalisations, speaking
> > for others without their consent, by insisting that "most" of us here are
> > too experienced to care for Adam's post. I'm an experienced Python
> > programmer, I've been contributing here and on other forums for over a
> > decade, and I learned something new from Adam's video.
> > Earlier, I posted on how Adam could have, *should* have, engaged with us.
> > But we should have engaged with him too:
> > - we should have assumed good faith, instead of accusing him of being a
> > spammer;
> > - we should have been welcoming, instead of exclusionary and elitist;
> > - we should have given him constructive criticism for his video, since it is
> > on-topic, rather than being so carelessly dismissive;
> > - or even just ignored it, if you don't like instructional videos;
> > - we should be respectful of people's right to prefer video over text, as
> > misguided as I personally believe it to be, some people like it;
> > - and we should be forgiving of minor faux pas and gaffes, rather than going
> > on the attack as we did.
> > Adam, for myself, I am sorry that we allowed a few mild gaffes on your part
> > lead to such a hostile reception for you, but please have a belated
> > welcome.
> Thank you for posting this Steven. As a list admin, I pretty much agree
> with everything you said. Some people are caught in a negative feedback
> cycle and all should step out of it and stop.
Thanks Steven, Terry for that.
I would like to add: Often behavior that is labeled obnoxious comes from
people who have no clue about it.
Google groups is a typical example because GG works (kinda) for people
who use GG. IOW GG hides its own problems; whereas it hits other
users. [I had no idea that the long lines is an issue until rurpy
pointed it out] In this case the additional gaffe in the same direction
is that python-list is owned by Google(!!).
Adam: I do request you once again to read and
'action'¹ https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
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¹ Am I the only one who finds nouns used as verbs obnoxious?<wink>
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