root:alpine
在 Jan 30, 2012，7:00 PM，python-mode-requ...@python.org 写道： > Send Python-mode mailing list submissions to > python-mode@python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-mode-requ...@python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-mode-ow...@python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Python-mode digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: hide-show mode ( Fran?ois Pinard) > 2. Re: hide-show mode (Andreas R?hler) > 3. Re: Pymacs runs from python-mode ( Fran?ois Pinard) > 4. Re: hide-show mode ( Fran?ois Pinard) > 5. Re: Pymacs runs from python-mode (Richard Everson) > 6. Re: Pymacs runs from python-mode (Andreas R?hler) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:24:25 -0500 > From: pin...@iro.umontreal.ca ( Fran?ois Pinard) > To: Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> > Cc: python-mode@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-mode] hide-show mode > Message-ID: <87k44a8u3q....@iro.umontreal.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> writes: > >> Oh, oh, so what kind of punishment you have prepared? :) > > Me preparing punishment? Not my kind :-). My poor knowledge of English > makes me miss the meaning of the above sentence, but as it is ended with > a smiley, I presume it is a friendly tease! > >> outline and hide-show mode are common Emacs features and will work >> with python-mode out-of-the-box. > > They will surely not, if users have to explicitly turn them on. You > probably meant: these minor modes would work, if turned on. > >> The question here is, if it should be switched on by default. Read >> "notice" here as "being activated, thus get noticed" Well, for >> novices, if these features are on, using some key per chance without >> knowing what happens, that may turn nasty. Therefor it's not >> delivered switched-on by default, that has being the reflection. > > OK. If this is really the reason, it is a good reason. As I wrote in > some earlier message, python-mode has not only the right to, but the > duty of an "opinion" about what is best for average Python users, and > should deliver itself defaulted according to this opinion. > >>> Did you update README? That file should speak about capabilities and >>> elementary configuration. > >> Agreed. Will do what I can, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, >> Donnerstag... - the day of donar :) > > The importance of giving some usable documentation for python-mode > should not be underestimated. I see it as a top priority in the case > here, because it is severely lagging. And when I say "lagging", this is > a polite euphemism, "lacking" would me a more appropriate description. > > That importance goes above that of all the Blueprints altogether, you > know :-). Oh, no doubt it is a good thing to have self-aimed internal > documentation meant for planning, but if we take even a moderate > distance with the python-mode project and look at its current state, the > priority is clearly user documentation, not maintainer documentation. > > README and INSTALL are very sub-minimal currently. Only once > python-mode has a least minimal documentation, resume in parallel user > and maintainer documentation, and try to never lose sight again of the > users in the process. Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-) > > Fran?ois > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:39:13 +0100 > From: Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> > To: Fran?ois Pinard <pin...@iro.umontreal.ca> > Cc: python-mode@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-mode] hide-show mode > Message-ID: <4f256821.2050...@online.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-) >> >> Fran?ois >> >> > > just my opinion. So let's proceed. > BTW in doc there is a commands list. > Might it be of some use already? > > Cheers, > > Andreas > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:19:36 -0500 > From: pin...@iro.umontreal.ca ( Fran?ois Pinard) > To: pymacs-de...@googlegroups.com > Cc: python-mode@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-mode] Pymacs runs from python-mode > Message-ID: <87fwey8j7r....@iro.umontreal.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> writes: >> Am 29.01.2012 04:24, schrieb Fran?ois Pinard: > >>> * README nor INSTALL should tell about PYMACS_INSTALL_DIR >>> * The change addresses a need which Pymacs does not offer >>> * python-mode should work with the minimum setup possible >>> * python-mode should pay attention at keeping its copies up-to-date >>> * Observed flaws should be duly reported upstream > >> think that's our understanding too. Should something in the past >> didn't happen that way, assume rather a lack of force than a lack of >> will. > > Yes, this is what I assume. (Same for user documentation.) Yet we have > to speak out about such things, because laziness being what it is (I do > know what laziness is!), those accidental misses progressively transform > into habits, habits into rights, and rights into principles. We have to > stay careful all along, and discuss methodology problems early -- as > long, of course, as discussions do not suck up the left bits of energy! > >> Remains the question if a README is the suitable place for storing >> that kind of info. > > In the current state of affairs with python-mode, yes, clearly, > undoubtedly. > >> See you did it at Pymacs and certainly thats a possibility. > > Pymacs documentation is not in README, it is a reStructured Text > formatted manual (the pre-processor has its own separate manual). But > when Pymacs started and had nothing else, yes, it was all in README. > README is the traditional unavoidable file in a distribution, where > users seek for installation instructions and user documentation (or at > least, pointers to where it sits, when not included). > >> Indeed we are severely behind writing the info. Sorry for that. >> Exists a Milestone already, 6.1.1 should deliver it - maybe already >> 6.1? > > Making Milestones, Blueprints, Gantt charts about it is not effective. > Fill in the README details *right now*, when you happen to stumble on > them. When you see yourself thinking "Hey, I'll add this information > later into the Great Documentation I'm planning to have", slap yourself! > :-) Rather *immediately* dump the information, all raw, all unformatted, > into README. Do not even try to be proud of it, that would come later. > For now, just pour information in it at any opportunity. > >> May you open your own branch forked from trunk at lp? Could merge >> than all Pymacs diffs easily. > > Hey, let's move python-mode over to GitHub instead :-) And besides, if > people really think it is hopeless to ever get python-mode integrated > into Emacs, is there much remaining reason left, sticking with Bazaar? > > Keep happy! > > Fran?ois > > P.S. Behind the above tease, I hope you see my point: maintainers should > get away from this attitude of always attempting to pull all users (or > other maintainers) in their own playground. This is one of the aspects > I hate about trackers and other maintainer toys. While it's comfortable > for me to get a mere "pull request" on GitHub, I'd never try to force my > users into it, as it might not be comfortable for them. My comfort is > not *more worth* than theirs. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:40:47 -0500 > From: pin...@iro.umontreal.ca ( Fran?ois Pinard) > To: Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> > Cc: python-mode@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-mode] hide-show mode > Message-ID: <878vkq8i8g....@iro.umontreal.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> writes: > >> Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-) just my opinion. So let's >> proceed. > > Of course! > >> BTW in doc there is a commands list. Might it be of some use already? > > As doc/ stands, it is not much different from the Emacs Lisp sources > from which we would have subtracted Emacs Lisp. It's much better than > not having sources at all, but it's not essentially better than the > sources themselves, so it does not add value to the distribution. > > Unless I miss something, doc/ could almost go away. I use `C-h m' or > `C-h b' in activated Python mode to get the key bindings, you likely do > it this way also. So one sentence in README telling how to do `C-h m' > or `C-h b' could likely replace the interesting part of doc/, and maybe > more useful too. That's not good documentation yet, but that's a start. > > I doubt average Python users, not already familiar with Emacs Lisp, > could manage their way into doc/, but I may well be wrong on that! > > Fran?ois > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:03:09 +0000 > From: Richard Everson <r.m.ever...@exeter.ac.uk> > To: Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> > Cc: "pymacs-de...@googlegroups.com" <pymacs-de...@googlegroups.com>, > "python-mode@python.org" <python-mode@python.org> > Subject: Re: [Python-mode] Pymacs runs from python-mode > Message-ID: <ac9c4c03-3bdb-4df3-98d2-8cb29a072...@exeter.ac.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > On 29 Jan 2012, at 08:03, Andreas R?hler wrote: > >> Am 29.01.2012 04:24, schrieb Fran?ois Pinard: >>> Andreas R?hler<andreas.roeh...@online.de> writes: >>> >>>> If we provide the next Python-mode/Pymacs release using Make as Pymacs >>>> does, the top directory should contain only the minimal requiring, >>>> i.e, INSTALL, README etc. >>> >>> Hi, Andreas, and gang. >>> >>> Recently, I noticed that pymacs.el within python-mode (should be >>> Pymacs.el from now on), has a small local modification. When Emacs >>> launches the Python helper, it first does: >>> >>> " sys.path.insert(1, os.getenv('PYMACS_INSTALL_DIR'));" >>> >>> Let me comment a bit about this change: >>> >>> * Nowhere in python-mode README nor INSTALL, this PYMACS_INSTALL_DIR >>> environment variable is presented nor explained, while it really >>> should. Average Python mode users are unlikely to guess they have to >>> set this environment variable prior to calling Emacs. > > Hi, > > This was my ugly hack to enable Python to find Pymacs when Pymacs is > distributed with python-mode.el and is therefore not on sys.path. There's > nothing about it in README or INSTALL because I think it's purely local to > the python-mode/pymacs interaction and the general user shouldn't need to > know or do anything about it: that environment variable is set by > python-mode.el. On the other hand, it would be *much* better to use the > distributed, current version of Pymacs, but it's not clear to me how to > achieve that if Pymacs is not installed somewhere on the standard sys.path. > > Best, > Richard. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:33:59 +0100 > From: Andreas R?hler <andreas.roeh...@online.de> > To: Fran?ois Pinard <pin...@iro.umontreal.ca> > Cc: pymacs-de...@googlegroups.com, python-mode@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-mode] Pymacs runs from python-mode > Message-ID: <4f25ad37.2060...@online.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > [ ... ] >>> May you open your own branch forked from trunk at lp? Could merge >>> than all Pymacs diffs easily. >> >> Hey, let's move python-mode over to GitHub instead :-) > > it's mirrored here: > > https://github.com/pdee/pdee/tree/master/python-modes/python-mode-el > > Should you make a branch, Pymacs stuff shaped as you want, I can merge > from there. > > > Andreas > > [ ... ] > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Python-mode mailing list > Python-mode@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode > > > End of Python-mode Digest, Vol 91, Issue 17 > ******************************************* _______________________________________________ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
