On Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 6:12 PM Alok Gandhi <alok.gandhi2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Also I would like to throw my 2 cents in as someone that develops not as
>> one that writes scripts and tools on a per-show basis to get shots finaled,
>> but as one that works on longer term projects to serve the ongoing
>> pipeline. The advise from that conference might be more applicable to
>> situations like that, where a shot-delivery time frame is not the case. It
>> really just depends on whether your deliverable is a shot, or software.
>
>
> I agree, I am also employed as a Pipeline Engineer and do not have the
> pressing need to script  for a single shot but rather develop Pipeline
> Tools and APIs that are consumed by various departments. I can totally
> understand where you are coming from and it makes complete sense. I started
> out as an artist (animator, rigger, and generalist) and then a TD and
> gradually segway into Pipeline. During this journey, I clearly saw my
> development focus shift from 'just make it work' to 'make it beautiful and
> readable'.
>

100% agree!


> On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Justin Israel <justinisr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 5:34 PM Alok Gandhi <alok.gandhi2...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> @Justin: I agree with readability trumping performance, and almost at
>>> all times, I follow almost the same tenets. However, in our trade,
>>> performance is ever more critical and is becoming important every single
>>> day. The entertainment industry is one of the major stakeholders when
>>> it comes to demand for processing power. We need that water to look real,
>>> 10 million polygon processing, we need that. And on top of that, we work on
>>> deadlines, sometimes unreal. When there is a pressing need to process huge
>>> amounts of data so that the shot can be approved, we have to do that. And
>>> it is at such moments, readability might take a back seat. This by no means
>>> is a justification for ignoring readability but rather the state of
>>> affairs. There is sometimes a tradeoff involved, sometimes not. You can get
>>> the best of both the worlds if you have enough time on your hand.
>>>
>>
>> I appreciate this need. Ultimately we have to deliver shots and meet
>> deadlines. Ultimately we are in the business of making
>> Movies/Television/Games/<entertainment>, and not necessarily software.
>>
>> But really, it doesn't change the point of the advise from that
>> conference speaker. Even if performance ends up becoming the primary focus,
>> then naturally the other points become secondary. And you have to weigh
>> those decisions, right? Do we need this solution beyond this shot? This
>> show? Who gets to maintain it? How easy it is to continue to be adapted to
>> the next challenge.
>>
>> Also I would like to throw my 2 cents in as someone that develops not as
>> one that writes scripts and tools on a per-show basis to get shots finaled,
>> but as one that works on longer term projects to serve the ongoing
>> pipeline. The advise from that conference might be more applicable to
>> situations like that, where a shot-delivery time frame is not the case. It
>> really just depends on whether your deliverable is a shot, or software.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It is good that we have a growing and healthy open source community,
>>> with studios investing in making amazing open source projects
>>> - OpenVDB exr, Alembic, USD etc. to name a few. With neatly written API to
>>> handle low-level high-processing procedures, all abstracted for the benefit
>>> of writing clean yet power packed code.
>>>
>>> That's my two cents.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Justin Israel <justinisr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 1:09 PM yury nedelin <ynede...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is performance something you are concerned with for this process?
>>>>> Yury
>>>>>
>>>> Marcus had said it was not a concern. I was just sharing some
>>>> interesting info on the topic of readability and maintainability
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 16, 2016 6:16 PM, "Justin Israel" <justinisr...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 5:27 AM Alok Gandhi <
>>>>>> alok.gandhi2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Coming back to some of the points that Ian raised:
>>>>>>>     > Readability is a perfectly valid goal to seek but I
>>>>>>> find maintainability is often overlooked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO more readable code is more maintainable. Readability goes hand
>>>>>>> in hand with maintainability. In fact, I very much agree that code lasts
>>>>>>> longer than an author and if you write readable code it will be easier 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> read and understand for the people after you are gone and are not 
>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>> to explain why you did what. If by maintainability you meant actually
>>>>>>> extensibility, then it is a completely different aspect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As an aside, I just recently went to a convention, and in one of the
>>>>>> talks the speaker opened with his list of priorities for designing
>>>>>> software:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Integrity - The software should operate in a predictable manner,
>>>>>> respond appropriately to exceptional conditions, and clean up nicely 
>>>>>> during
>>>>>> a termination
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Readability - The intent of the code should be clear
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Simplicity (has to be justified to be more important than #2)
>>>>>> 4. Performance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He basically yelled at us for 10 minutes about the importance of the
>>>>>> first two, and said only when you can prove to me that everything else is
>>>>>> addressed, that you should then look at performance. It was a pretty good
>>>>>> talk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > In driving to a solution avoiding the additional markup (as in my
>>>>>>> solution or in json/XML) you've likely put yourself (and too often your
>>>>>>> team after you've left) in a place where you'll need to rewrite the
>>>>>>> function for future feature requests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you read my previous posts in this threads, you will see that I
>>>>>>> clearly mentioned that getting input is an administrative logic. In 
>>>>>>> fact, I
>>>>>>> provisioned for it and alluded to Marcus about it. Here's what I wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - Right in the beginning, we parse the string in a single line,
>>>>>>>    keeping the administrative logic out from the rest of our business 
>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>    You can easily replace this single line with whatever parser you 
>>>>>>> want.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This means that the code that is responsible for creating nodes
>>>>>>> should not worry itself with how it is getting the data in, JSON or 
>>>>>>> YAML.
>>>>>>> And the parser, whichever it is, should not worry about what is going to
>>>>>>> happen to data it outputs. any good architecture should take care of 
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> point. Making components decoupled and flexible. Good architecture does 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> only apply to huge libraries or big project, it should be given thought 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> every single small quantum of code, a function and even inside parts of 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> function. I did not avoid the input data structure, I simply did not 
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> on that part as was not required my Marcus originally. Even then, I
>>>>>>> separated the code so that in my implementation, nowhere it does rely on
>>>>>>> whether I choose JSON or YAML or some other markup. If ten years later,
>>>>>>> somebody wants to use my implementation, with JSON the only change it 
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> require is to change the first line of my code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 12:56 AM, Marcus Ottosson <
>>>>>>> konstrukt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Ian!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some notes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - The implementation is up for grabs, but I'd like to keep the
>>>>>>>> interface of the function; that is, passing a single string with
>>>>>>>> indentation for hierarchy.
>>>>>>>> - Performance is not important here, because (1) the function is
>>>>>>>> only being used in example code, where the call itself should fall 
>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>> background and (2) creating a hierarchy can safely take a few hundred
>>>>>>>> milliseconds if it means more readable code.
>>>>>>>>
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