Sebastian, Thank you for taking the time to reply, and clarify.
I do understand that Qooxdoo is not 100% feature complete, and if we do adopt it we would be more than willing to assist in this effort - the point being we have consisdered writing a similar tool ourselves, and feel if we can find a tool that is well written and 75% of the way there, even if there are some minor differences in philosophy, it makes more sense to contribute and extend to the usefullness we need rather than start from scratch. Thus all my probing questions to see how the fit would be. I also understand my exact use may not fit your exact original intent, or someone elses exact use, so there may be edge cases that only fit my use, and thus would fall to me to resolve.. but your knowledge of the system is of course far beyond mine, so I would like to be able to leverage your knowledge rather than have to figure everything out from scratch in the source code - if we had to go too far down that path, it would make more sense to write it ourselves.. Lastly, I think you sell yourself short - qooxdoo, even at .14, is more than comparable to anything similar.. the only things I would see as more feature rich would be things like XUL (which honestly would be my choice if I could convince my management!) or Flex, both of which are unrestarined by DHTML capabilities! Thank you Russell On 1/6/06, Sebastian Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > J. Russell Smyth schrieb: > > Wow, I have to say that this is a suprisingly unfriendly respnonse. > > You asked me if we were using release or renderer, and this was my > > answer. I say suprisingly unfriendly because I have been following > > this list for quite some time and have not seen such a response > > before. > > This was not meant to be unfriendly. Sorry for this. It seems to me that > you are await that qooxdoo is already feature-complete. I just want to > put it in perspective. We are working hard to bring it step by step to > be more usable for the masses. We are really interested in feedback and > contribution. But some people don't seem to understand that this costs > some time to get done. > > The only thing I actually want to say is that it is probably not > realistic if you want to use qooxdoo without some time investment to get > it working for your needs. We have not just reached the level to allow > plug-and-play. I hope you can accept my excuse. What you understand was > not really my intention. > > Sorry again. > > Sebastian > > > > > I fully understand it is "not your problem" - that is one of the tradeoffs > > with > > using Open Source, my problem is NEVER your problem.. sometimes our needs > > will overlap, sometimes you may have a solution for my problem readily > > available, but my problems will never be "your problem". > > > > However, in a project that is expecting to benifit from input and > > possibly code from its users, > > (which you would from my co - anywhere from 2-5 major products would > > use it, somewhere between 2k and 7k users on those apps, and 1-5 > > developers adding too and reviwing Qx code - depending on how usefull > > the toolkit proved to be) > > > > it is not usually a good idea to respond with "this is not our > > problem" or "we are at version .14, dont expect us to [work]" > > > > For a project like this to be successfull, it must be adopted by > > users, and I can guarantee that managers seeing a response like this > > from the lead dev for a project will quickly veto the use of the > > project. It has happened to me before - unable to use a good tool > > because the lead devs made responses like this in publicly visible > > forums. > > > > On 1/6/06, Sebastian Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> J. Russell Smyth schrieb: > >>> Renderer. this would have to be our target if we were to use Qooxdoo, > >>> for performance and advanced features, and we do not have the > >>> opportunity to do a major rewrite just after adopting a new tool. > >> I am sorry. But this is not our problem. qooxdoo is currently at version > >> 0.1.4. Don't expect that it is as stable and feature complete as other > >> native toolkits in versions beyond five and many years of development. > >> > >> Sebastian > >> > >>> On 1/5/06, Sebastian Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> just one question. Are you trying out "renderer" or the current release? > >>>> > >>>> Sebastian > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> J. Russell Smyth schrieb: > >>>>>> J. Russell Smyth schrieb: > >>>>>>> I am curious about some "construction" decisions. Is there reasoning > >>>>>>> behind making QxListView from "div" components rather than "table"? My > >>>>>>> main curiosity is we are evaluating QooxDoo for some major internal > >>>>>>> applications, and want to make sure we understand as much as possible > >>>>>>> before making a decision. > >>>>>> The old qooxdoo use sub-node-structures many times. This is true for > >>>>>> tables, where you need to move the children to the desired target node, > >>>>>> which is not the real node of the parent itself. > >>>>> I am not able to understand what you are saying here, other than old > >>>>> qooxdoo > >>>>> used tables? > >>>>> > >>>>>> The new ones layout decisions use divs all over and try to create as > >>>>>> less as DOM nodes as necessary (as they are performance critical). > >>>>> Yes, I understand that creating fewer dom nodes if possible is an > >>>>> advantage, but > >>>>> do you not also discard all of the formatting capaiblities built > >>>>> natively into > >>>>> table structure? > >>>>> > >>>>> Dont get me wrong, in part I see the elegance of using div's and your > >>>>> own layout > >>>>> mechanism where possible, but question the value in tabular data? > >>>>> > >>>>>>> One reason I ask this is we have had to deal with large tables and > >>>>>>> sorting here, and have had to do some interesting stuff to make them > >>>>>>> fast - we have at least one app with a requirement for tables > >>>>>>> containing > >>>>>>> 5000 rows with sorting capability - with IE support a must. For > >>>>>>> QooxDoo, > >>>>>>> if you load QxListView with 5k rows in the demo, it dies.. it has > >>>>>>> actually crashed my IE, and when it dosnt, it just falls asleep.. even > >>>>>>> with only a few k rows, sorting is unacceptably slow... > >>>>>> It really dies? What means "dies" for you? > >>>>> Well, as I stated, it somtimes crashes IE. Other times it will just > >>>>> spin CPU cycles at about 99% for very long periods of time (10-20 > >>>>> seconds for 5k rows) > >>>>> > >>>>>> Is the loading the problem or > >>>>>> the sorting of the data. > >>>>> each additional 1k items takes progressively longer, so loading is > >>>>> also a problem - somewhere around 15 seconds to load > >>>>> > >>>>> But the real problem is sorting. And yes, it is MUCH worse in IE. > >>>>> > >>>>>> To handle sorts of large arrays at client is a > >>>>>> problem because the Internet Explorer has some huge performance impacts > >>>>>> there (much bigger than Firefox). If you have many items in your list > >>>>>> it > >>>>>> is probably the best to do the real sorting at the server and just send > >>>>>> the new data via AJAX to the client. > >>>>> doing this server side is not an option for at least one of the > >>>>> applications. I myself dont > >>>>> belive that 5k rows of data is human consumable, and displaying data > >>>>> in this format to me > >>>>> is incorrect, but that is the requirement. > >>>>> > >>>>> Unfortunately, there is an existing in-house custom table component > >>>>> that is able to sort 5k rows in IE on a moderatly powered pc (sub what > >>>>> my test machine is) in sub second time, so > >>>>> I wont be able to sell that it is too slow because of ie :) > >>>>> > >>>>> If I can find ways to improve this, based on our in house solution, I > >>>>> will gladly submit a patch. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you for your information! > >>>>> Russell > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > >>>>> files > >>>>> for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > >>>>> searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > >>>>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > >>>> files > >>>> for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > >>>> searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > >>>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------- > >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > >>> files > >>> for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > >>> searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > >>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------- > >> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > >> files > >> for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > >> searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > >> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files > > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click _______________________________________________ Qooxdoo-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
