Hi Derrell,
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Derrell Lipman <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 14:58, Petr Kobalíček <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> do you think that javascript is a good language to use it on server-side?
>> For me it's worst language I ever worked with, but there is no other I can
>> use to write multibrowser web-pages / web-apps.
>>
>
> Different strokes for different folks. Having used many languages over the
> past 1/4 century, JavaScript is currently my favorite of any I've ever used.
>
It's my opinion, not common truth.
Javascript is singlethreaded language,
>
>
> Good. Threads are a debugging and maintenance nightmare. Been there, done
> that. I recommend against using them for nearly all applications. (They do
> have appropriate uses; I just feel they're way overused when it is
> inappropriate, and many developers who attempt to use them don't have the
> skill set to do so properly.) There are better mechanisms to use in most
> cases: heavy-weight processes if they're not fired up too frequently; an
> event loop (often a great solution); etc.
>
I'm talking about the design of language. It's always good if you have
choice than if you don't. It's more easier if language allows you to do
things.
performance/memory footprint is problem,
>
>
> Performance, possibly. With the latest JIT JavaScript interpreters, I'm not
> even sure if that's much of an issue any longer. Memory footprint is not an
> issue in anything but embedded systems (memory is practically free, and
> computers come with lots of it), and even in the embedded environment I'd
> have to do some experimenting to see whether the memory footprint really
> greatly exceeds (or exceeds to an untenable extent) the footprint of a
> compiled application.
>
I understand x86/x64 assembler very much and I can say that no jit can
generate code that is similar to C/C++ (the most efficient languages when it
comes to performance). I have no problem with this, because C++ compiler
spend much more time when compiling code to machine. My problem here is that
Java or .NET compilers can create much better jit-code than javascript
without extra cost - type information is known, class memory structure and
members are known - there is not guess whether type is int, string or class,
the compiler simply knows all types except type-casted objects. Currently
javascript jit compilers are doing extra work to guess correct type, they
are patching code, tracing code - the design of language seems to be more
complicated than type-safe ones.
Also javascript has no byte-code standardization, so it's nearly impossible
to precompile some code and just import it by virtual-machine. There is also
no language keyword to do it (because it was never designed to do so).
it's not type-safe
>
>
> Type-safe is highly over-rated. Types were necessary in early compiled
> languages in order to tell the compiler how to allocate memory. Types do
> allow hints to be given to the developer when something bad is assigned, but
> I think the flexibility of, for example, storing numbers in some elements of
> an array and strings or even object references in other elements far
> outweigh the benefits of rigid types.
>
Type-safety build into language itself has its benefits. Look at
actionscript for example, you have choice to use static types or dynamic
ones. The minor side effect is that when you add type-info to your code it
should be more efficient and compiler can tell you basic mistakes. This is
impossible with javascript.
>
>> and there are no libraries.
>
>
> That will likely change soon. In the interim, as with PHP, C libraries can
> likely be linked in to provide external functionality.
>
I understand this, but since there is no standardization in javascript how
to do it and there are more interpreters you can use on the server there can
be situation that your library has no bindings for you. With PHP/Python/Java
you have usually luck or these tools are written in a language itself.
>
>
>> Personally I can't understand why to use qooxdoo on server side, what you
>> gain? Using oo model,
>
>
> My biggest problem with JavaScript as a language is its non-standard
> prototype-based object model. qooxdoo has pretty much fixed that, giving it
> a similar object model to other current and common languages.
>
Question is, is problem solved in right place? Adding type-safety and
standard class system into language will solve this problem for all code,
not just your code. Qooxdoo is its own world, you can't rewrite all
javascript code to use qooxdoo object model.
>
>> Using dom or widgets, what is it good for?
>
>
> Nothing. They likely have nothing to do with server-side JavaScript
> programming.
>
Some node.js users are using jquery for example, so I asked;)
>
> I respect your opinion, and I believe it's a fairly common opinion. I also
> see an evolution to a different (better, IMO) paradigm for many
> applications, and JavaScript on the server is part of that evolution.
>
I respect your opinion too and I have no problem with that! I have some
experiences in programming languages/compilers and I think that javascript
is not goodly designed language for larger/complex projects. There are
missing many things available in other languages. Personally I think that
javascript is so much used now only because there is no other choice. I
think that javascript on the server-side is good for educational/fan
purposes, it's simply amazing how you can do with open-source (connecting
various tools together), but for me it's not serious server technology.
>
> Derrell
>
>
>
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