no deity at all...? really..? you know someone that believes all of creation and life and the whole universe is just a chance happening and that after we die physically, there is nothingness for us..? i find that pretty hard to comprehend. if no one had a deity to use as an excuse for pillaging and plundering and fighting over medical procedures, do you suppose all that would not happen? would we all get together for endless love-ins and camp-outs, or would we kill each other for different reasons? a planless, meaningless, futureless existence - how strange and meaningless that would be. dave In a message dated 4/10/2007 7:19:32 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Not everyone believes in the same deity, anyway. Not everyone believes in any deity or deities. Take the mythology out of the equation, and a lot more things would be possible, I think. I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs or ideas about religion, I wouldn't do that, but look at how much hypocrisy and terror has been caused by the ideas, and in the names of religion and deities. -Angie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this sure was easier (philosophically anyway) in the old days when playing with God's work wasn't possible. All medicine - treatments - procedures - are fiddling with HIS design and work. It's pretty tough to 'half-learn' anything once you get started. HE didn't make us with the 'give up' gene activated just because we are at a certain level. If so, it would have activated a long time ago. Dave In a message dated 4/8/2007 11:04:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am against the whole IVF process that creates excess embryos to begin with. The frozen embryos can continued to be stored indefinitely. What's wrong with that? Are you concerned about the energy being used to keep them frozen? The embryos that are unfrozen eventually die a natural death, just as every other living thing, then cremated. That is quite different then killing it by removing stem cells to use in someone else. Even organ donors are declared dead by some standards before there organs are removed. # S.5—Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2007 doesn't even do that; it just states that the embryos were in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment. and would never be implanted in a woman. I want my spinal cord repaired so I can breathe without a ventilator and possibly move independently, but I don't want it so badly that I will end another human life just for the possible improve my own life. I don't understand how those wanting to use stem cells from embryos can't comprehend that. An embryo is a human life, and put into the right environment, will continue to develop and grow. I'm not so self centered that improving my life should come at the cost of another life. There are other sources of pluripotent stem cells, sources such as umbilical chords and amniotic fluid. There is also somatic cell nuclear transfer (therapeutic cloning) which I don't have a problem with. On a side note, my cousin just gave birth to a son last week. He was the result of IVF from her egg and her husband's sperm. They had 8 viable embryos. The first 7 she did not carry full term. I'm happy for them that the last one she was able to carry to term and mom and son are doing fine. Jim At 08:04 AM 4/8/2007, Dan wrote: So what do you do with the thousands of excess fertilized eggs that result from in vitro fertilization? Store them forever? Ban the process? These excess eggs are thrown into the garbage everyday yet I don't hear anyone complaining. So what's your answer. Dan At 07:50 PM 4/7/2007 -0700, Jim Lubin said something that elicited my response: Glad to see you partly agree with me Dan. (yes I realize you were being sarcastic) I don't agree with the part about having elaborate funerals and burying them, but yes we must not destroy unused fertilized eggs created for IVF treatments. Using unused embryos is not the same as organ donation because organ donor are dead before organs are harvested. Removing stem cells from an embryo kills the embryo. I've listened to Dr Kerr from Johns Hopkins talk a few times about his research. _http://www.hopkinsneuro.org/tm/_ (http://www.hopkinsneuro.org/tm/) watch his presentation at the 2006 symposium here _http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2767307331641285489&hl=en_ (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2767307331641285489&hl=en) he mentioned that they want to use the embryos created for IVF that are deformed (something to that effect) and can not be used for in-vitro treatment. Now I can go along with using those that could not be used to result in a pregnancy. I agree with S. 30: A bill to intensify research to derive human pluripotent stem cell lines At 06:35 PM 4/7/2007, Dan wrote: Yes, yes, yes! We must not destroy all those useless fertilized eggs. We should let them perish on their own and then we should have an elaborate funeral and bury them in a tiny little plot of earth. AND we must not allow abortion at ANY cost. Thank you Jesus! Hallelujah! Dan, who always gives great credence to anything authored by a reverend. At 06:15 PM 4/7/2007 -0700, Jim Lubin said something that elicited my response: SIX STEM CELL FACTS * There are non-controversial alternatives worth exploring; such as the reprogramming of ordinary somatic (body) cells, the derivation of stem cells from amniotic fluid, and (assuming that it can be shown that the product is not an embryo), altered nuclear transfer. * Concerns about embryo destruction are not only religious; but merely a healthy respect for the human capacity for doing evil in pursuit of the good. * The search for cures is not the only motive behind ESC research,; many scientists are interested only in enhancing basic scientific knowledge of such things as cell signaling, tissue growth and early human development. Source: Robert P. George and Thomas V. Berg, "Six Stem Cell Facts," Wall Street Journal, March 14, 2007. For text: _http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117384191108736444.html_ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117384191108736444.html) ---- Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED] _http://makoa.org/jim_ (http://makoa.org/jim) disAbility Resources: _http://www.makoa.org _ (http://www.makoa.org/) Dave _Visit My Home Page_ (http://www.users.qwest.net/~daveoc/index.html) ____________________________________ See what's free at _AOL.com_ (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503) . ____________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with _the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games._ (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49936/*http://videogames.yahoo.com) Dave _Visit My Home Page_ (http://www.users.qwest.net/~daveoc/index.html) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
