On 7 July 2016 03:28:48 BST, Chris Laprise <tas...@openmailbox.org> wrote:
>On 07/06/2016 09:42 PM, raahe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I'm not so adamant about wanting gpu passthrough on qubes,  cause
>imo,  gaming online usually means all security is out the window.  Plus
>I feel as though gpu is much bigger attack surface for side channel
>attacks then net card.  I could be wrong because I have no clue about
>low level stuff, but I feel it would somehow undermine purpose of using
>qubes.  Maybe I'm wrong.
>
>I think this is wrong because many kinds of apps rely on GPUs now:
>Media 
>decoding and creation, 3D design and printing (I would love to have
>even 
>just SketchUp on Qubes!), and any other responsive 3D interface that
>app 
>designers want to offer. This even includes web pages, crypto-currency,
>
>and many scientific apps. GPUs are now general processing engines that 
>embody MOST of a typical computer's processing power.
>
>This is not about games.
>
I think this is wrong. Most heavy computer users work in offices and do word 
processing and spreadsheets, the 'average' casual use is generally web browsing 
and light media consumption.
Qubes works fine for using Libreoffice, web applications and social media, and 
programming e.g. in Python. Graphics designers can use GIMP or InkScape, or any 
of the Windows programs that they commonly use.
It is true that you won't be able to use 3D applications like SketchUp, but I 
do not think such tasks constitute most of the average workload as you say. 
Perhaps they make up most of your workload, but I don't think that you speak 
for everyone here. I have found Qubes works for me, and people I know do 
similar tasks on their computers.

>Furthermore, there is no getting around the fact that visual rendering 
>is integral to security. The GPU can see any private info that you can,
>
>and if compromised can take steps to trick users into sabotaging their 
>own privacy and security. Like the CPU, the GPU must be accepted as a 
>core component of trust, and protected as such... at least any GPU that
>
>operates the admin and trusted domains.
>
>It is fortunate that we at least have a trend of integrated GPUs (in 
>APUs) where the GPU is manufactured into the same package as the 
>(implicitly) trusted CPU. For the time being, this is a boost to Qubes'
>
>compatibility and security even if the GPUs are under-utilized.
>
>For Qubes to either 1) give up on GPU support, or 2) relegate them to 
>untrusted status would be an _irretrievable_ error in judgment. It
>would 
>make the OS a 21st century terminal application, because the lions
>share 
>of the power expected by PC users would be missing (as it is
>currently).
>
>Chris
>

I dispute this argument. Dropping "GPU support" (I am not sure where you get 
this impression) is hardly going to make Qubes a terminal application. You can 
use anything that uses 2D graphics, and can play music and movies, and do word 
processing, and email, and software development, and... The list goes on. Qubes 
is about security, and allowing such high level access for the GPU is a 
terrible compromise.

>> Plus as a gamer myself,  I always want the most fps the machine can
>dish,  and that's definitely not by running games in a vm.
>>
>> I have a separate machine for sensitive and daily tasks running
>qubes.  Most people use consoles for gaming now anyways.  Hardware
>industry has been dying for a decade and I never had any reason or
>thought I would ever build a custom pc again,  until qubes!  :)
>>
If you are doing something really heavy like statistical work you often would 
use a dedicated server for this. As far as I know connecting to such servers 
would be possible using Qubes. At any rate you could always use Qubes for 
personal use and then have a dedicated work computer for stats, 3D development, 
etc.

These are just my own observations.
Hope it helps, 
D.

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