On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying
> > > > > > to get paid, they deserve it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like
> > > > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I look at things differently. You are referring to linux
> > > > > > architecture and developers, while I'm referring to the majority
> > > > > > of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the
> > > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the
> > > > > end.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see
> > > > > it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service
> > > > > is out of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people
> > > > > into making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade
> > > > > between a company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see
> > > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, really don't
> > > > > like that approach.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask
> > > > > for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users.
> > > > > They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the
> > > > > change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too
> > > > > much for Qubes to focus on both companies and end-users at the same
> > > > > time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might
> > > > > just be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand.
> > > > > But lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in
> > > > > good time rather the long wait.
> > > >
> > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,
> > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > >
> > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to
> > > > use Qubes or not.
> > > >
> > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the
> > > > idea was created by Microsoft. FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who
> > > > are against secure boot, is like Bernie supporters not voting for
> > > > hillary. Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > >
> > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose
> > > and create balance in the world.
> > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A
> > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be
> > > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and
> > > backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the
> > > intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human
> > > rights.
> > >
> > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no
> > > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force,
> > > rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support.
> > > We don't need companies that leech on society.
> > >
> > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's
> > > okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies
> > > towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the
> > > day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy
> > > individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic
> > > against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.
> > You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> > And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams insyde bios
> > attacks, which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of
> > worked on most ami bios as well. Without it whats the point? Why even
> > bother with Qubes? Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also
> > has no protections. Whats the point then?
> > The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment. Its for
> > practical use.
> ah I see, I follow you now.
> I'm not entirely sure how effective Anti-Evil-Maid is into detecting change
> in the BIOS/UEFI, perhaps someone can enlighten us on the topic? Can AEM be
> tricked or bypassed? Practically or theoretically?
> Though Joanna (head of Qubes) have said it might just be some years, if I
> remember correctly, before we might see true stateless computers. I'm not
> sure if anyone with resources would want to commit to such a thing, but it
> would definitely help us all out. I hope she can convince someone with
> resources with her goal for a true stateless pc.
> But meanwhile, we have to live with closed off firmware indeed, and it would
> be interesting to know how effective and trustworthy AEM is.
> I suppose it might also be possible to hardware firewall off any incoming
> signals to the computers BIOS/UEFI, which most routors do by default these
> days. At this point, it should be a simple matter to have a team to test if
> any BIOS/UEFI are phoning home.
> The only way someone can attack a BIOS/UEFI is if they have a leak through
> the firewall, which be be gained by trojan horses by either user mistakes and
> hidden software malware.
> The only other method, would be to have the BIOS/UEFI to phone home
> regularly, so that it can open up the hardware firewall, and these can be
> detected easily if someone keeps taps on them.
> In other words, our BIOS/UEFI should only be exploitable if our firewalls are
> not set up properly or we make mistakes on the internet.
> If I'm not mistaken, I don't want to claim to be an expert on this topic, I'm
> definitely not an expert. But as far as I understand the issue, this is the
> We should probably try stirrer back on-topic though, this is more Qubes
> general discussion than Qubes 4 discussion.
Unlike secure boot, aem does not stop a compromise, only notifies you of a
change which might indicate a compromise has happened, which basically is a
prompt to buy a new pc.
Reading posts on the forums tells me it can be buggy and false alarms happen
Intel says you need 3 things for the best boot protection. Secure boot,
trusted boot, and measured boot. I'm a total noob but I believe aem falls
into trusted boot category? So I wonder if its possible to use both? And I
have no idea what measured boot is.
Another thing to consider is that if you use a usb key, which makes most sense
to use with aem, then you can't use a sys-usb at the same time. So it depends
on your threat model and how you use your system. Someone might have to
correct me on this but I believe this to be the case.
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