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On 08/29/2017 07:38 PM, David Hobach wrote:
> On 08/29/2017 06:32 PM, cooloutac wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 12:25:51 PM UTC-4, cooloutac
>> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 11:38:59 AM UTC-4, Patrik Hagara
>>> wrote:
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>>>> 
>>>> On 08/29/2017 04:50 PM, [email protected]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Leo Gaspard,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have read about AEM but have never used it, it seems like
>>>>> it is geared towards protecting from USB's with malicious
>>>>> firmware on them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does AEM actually verify the integrity of /boot before
>>>>> using?  This is what I am looking for, either a method of
>>>>> encrypting /boot or even better, a secure method to verify
>>>>> its integrity during boot
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> AEM does verify the integrity of /boot using the TPM
>>>> seal/unseal operation. If any of the boot components change,
>>>> AEM falls back to regular, unmeasured boot -- the user is
>>>> expected to notice this and cease using the
>>>> potentially-compromised system (the lack of explicit 
>>>> indication of failed AEM boot is deliberate, see the last FAQ
>>>> item at [1]).
>>>> 
>>>> The security provided by AEM is much more stronger than
>>>> encrypted /boot could ever offer, because as already pointed
>>>> out, there is always a little first-stage bootloader stub on
>>>> the disk unencrypted and it would be easy to overwrite it
>>>> with a malicious version that would intercept the encryption
>>>> passphrase and exfiltrate it using eg. unused disk sectors.
>>>> 
>>>> If someone did the above with AEM, the TPM would refuse to
>>>> useal the AEM secret as the platform state would be
>>>> different.
> 
> You still have to trust the TPM manufacturer, some closed source
> Intel blob and some ITL code, i.e. I'd definitely test changes to
> /boot & your BIOS to cause the TPM to deny revealing the secret if
> I had to rely on it - the cheapest implementation is an
> "everything's ok" on every request after all...

Well, of course. You always have to trust *something*.

The ultimate goal is to reduce the trusted code base to bare minimum
and provide methods for end-users to verify that the code running
actually *is* the one advertised by vendor (eg. ITL).

> So the strongest method remains OpSec & physical security. This can
> also prevent things.

Layered security is the best approach, yes.

> Moreover the fewest people tend to buy new hardware once they
> detect a change via their TPM even though that would be the only
> reasonable reaction. So if you don't plan to do that, I'd forget
> about AEM.

Reasonable reaction always depends on the sophistication level of
adversary you're trying to defend against (ie. your defense "budget").
Nation states? Burn the laptop. Opportunistic black-hats? You'll be
fine simply reinstalling.


Cheers,
Patrik
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