On Friday, 28 September 2018 14:14:55 UTC+1, unman  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 01:56:41PM +0100, unman wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 01:02:22PM +0100, unman wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 03:15:22AM -0700, OutdoorAcorn wrote:
> > > > On Friday, 28 September 2018 10:48:19 UTC+1, unman  wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 05:09:22AM +0000, 'awokd' via qubes-users 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > OutdoorAcorn:
> > > > > > > I've just installed Qubes OS 4.0 on my old laptop to get the hang 
> > > > > > > of it before I (hopefully) make my leap over from Windows!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I wanted to install some new software in the personal and work 
> > > > > > > domains so I went to the "Qubes Menu -> Template: fedora-26 -> 
> > > > > > > fedora-26: Software" and clicked the Install button for an app 
> > > > > > > however it only ever displayed pending. I opened up the Qubes 
> > > > > > > Manager and noticed that no NetVM was assigned to any of the 
> > > > > > > templates. I opened the settings and assigned it sys-firewall 
> > > > > > > which then allowed me to install programs.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On the https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/software-update-vm/ page 
> > > > > > > under "Notes on trusting your TemplateVM(s)" heading it says:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > "Only install packages from trusted sources – e.g. from the 
> > > > > > > pre-configured Fedora repositories. All those packages are signed 
> > > > > > > by Fedora, and we expect that at least the package’s installation 
> > > > > > > scripts are not malicious. This is enforced by default (at the 
> > > > > > > firewall VM level), by not allowing any networking connectivity 
> > > > > > > in the default template VM, except for access to the Fedora 
> > > > > > > repos."
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > This no longer seems the case in Qubes OS 4.0 - no NetVM is 
> > > > > > > attached to the TemplateVMs and no default firewall rules. Okay, 
> > > > > > > onto the questions:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 1) Have these defaults been missed out from the Qubes OS 4.0 
> > > > > > > install?
> > > > > > > 2) Or is the documentation out of date and it's now recommended 
> > > > > > > to do something else?
> > > > > > > 3) How should I go about installing/updating apps in the 
> > > > > > > TemplateVMs?
> > > > > > > 3a) permanently attach sys-firewall and create firewall rules to 
> > > > > > > only allow trusted repos as the docs currently suggest
> > > > > > > 3b) or only attach sys-firewall when updating/installing and 
> > > > > > > disconnect afterwards?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The docs are right, but what they mean is that you can't use the 
> > > > > > "Software"
> > > > > > application to install apps in templates. You should leave NetVM on 
> > > > > > (none)
> > > > > > on the templates and instead use dnf on Fedora or apt on Debian.
> > > > > 
> > > > > To put a bit more flesh on that:
> > > > > 1. The mechanism has changed in Qubes 4.0, so the old defaults no 
> > > > > longer
> > > > > apply.
> > > > > Instead of using restricted access to a netvm, in Qubes 4.0 the update
> > > > > proxy is reached by qrexec calls. This provides better insulation for
> > > > > the template.
> > > > > You should not attach a TemplateVM to a netVM.
> > > > > 2. The docs should be clarified.
> > > > > 3. Open a terminal in the TemplateVM and run 'sudo dnf' or appropriate
> > > > > package manager, as awokd says.
> > > > > 3a. For reason above do not do this in Qubes 4.0
> > > > > 3b. For reason above do not do this in Qubes 4.0
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > If you want to install software not already packaged, then download 
> > > > > (and
> > > > > verify) it in a online qube and qvm-move it to the TemplateVM. Be 
> > > > > aware
> > > > > of the additional risks involved.
> > > > > 
> > > > > unman
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks for the response awokd and unman. I can confirm that this works 
> > > > as expected using dnf and apt. Reading further down on that page it 
> > > > explains in more detail how this is done via the qubes-update-proxy 
> > > > service.
> > > > 
> > > > If you can't install apps via the "Software" gui app how come it is 
> > > > listed in "Qubes Menu -> Template: fedora-26"? It seems like this is 
> > > > just going to lead newbies like myself down a dead end. 
> > > > 
> > > > You could go as far to say that the "Software" app isn't useful and 
> > > > should be removed. It can only be used in an AppVM or DVM (with an 
> > > > attached NetVM) and in the case of the AppVM the installed app would be 
> > > > removed on reboot.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks again for clearing this up for me.
> > > > =)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm not a Fedora user, but I would have expected the Software gui to
> > > work. The proxy use is set in dnf config and it would be surprising if
> > > the GUI program didn't honour that.
> > > Certainly in Debian based Ubuntu all the dpkg based package managers use
> > > the same config settings and honour the proxy.
> > > 
> > 
> > It seems to be an extremely long running issue with Gnome Software tool.
> > There is a suggestion that setting ProxyHTTP in
> > /etc/PackageKit/PackageKit.conf may fix this, and Qubes does that by
> > default, but it doesnt seem to work.
> > I'm not a Fedora user (or Gnome really), but maybe someone else has
> > suggestion?
> > 
> 
> There's an open issue for this (#3815):
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/3815

Thanks for digging into this unman and providing the issue.
I'll see if I can find some time to create a PR to update the documentation.

=)

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