True enough --generally. So are most of the people on the Jesus Seminar. However, seems to me best to reserve judgement when it comes to specifics. The little balls and voting on Bible passages was not something I thought well of; viz, it struck me as hopelessly ill-advised. Were all of the "experts" equally qualified ? Of course not. Was the deck stacked in favor or antinomians ? Obviously. And we could go down the list and come up with a bad report card 90 % of the time. But I learned that Dom Crossan was ( is ? ) part of the group and, as much as I may disagree with any number of his conclusions, the man has done his homework. Read two of his books this past several weeks, each over 500 pages long. Maybe he is wrong in substance 20 % of the time, maybe wrong in unimportant ways another 20 % of the time, and only really nails it 15 % of the time, but all told, I learned a helluva lot in the process. The other 45 % was at a minimum extremely informative. Haven't read all that much Borg, just a few things, but on this issue he brings up some worthwhile considerations --stuff about which I can say, "never thought of it that way before." How do you make the best sense of the immaterial "visions" of Jesus, post-crucifixion, of which there are more than a few after all, given the pretty much "standard" Sunday sermon view that in all cases we are talking about Jesus in the flesh ? Obviously by the Bible's own testimony this is not true. That is, the circle needs to be squared somehow and simply insisting that 100 % of the time it was a physical Jesus is not consistent with the Gospels or Paul. Yet I know, as do you, what is almost always said in Sunday sermons on the subject. As if the Doubting Thomas pericope is all there is to contemplate --when that is only one way. to think about the events of that time. Borg's conclusion strikes me as nothing much., essentially it leaves us hanging in mid air, so I won't defend that part of his essay, but there is some thoughtful material otherwise. Up to me --or anyone else-- to sort it all out. Billy ====================================================== message dated 4/18/2011 9:04:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Borg? Meh. He's pretty far out there in Postmodern la-la land.
David _ "There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as "caring" and "sensitive" because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't? And a voter who takes pride in supporting such programs is telling us that he'll do good with his own money -- if a gun is held to his head."--P. J. O'Rourke On 4/18/2011 1:25 PM, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) wrote: from the site : Patheos The Resurrection of Jesus: Physical/Bodily or Spiritual/Mystical? What would it mean to say that the risen Jesus is a physical/bodily reality? That he continues to be a molecular, protoplasmic, corpuscular being existing somewhere? Does that make any sense? By _Marcus Borg_ (mip://02e1ae80/default.html#author-short) , April 18, 2011 The choice between understanding the resurrection of Jesus as "physical/bodily" or as "spiritual/mystical" was included in the invitation to write this essay. The distinction is helpful; it makes clear that Christians have understood the meanings of Easter in different ways. But for more than one reason, including the common meanings of these words in modern English, I don't like either option. I begin with the positive, with what we can say with certainty about the meaning of Easter in the gospels and the New Testament. It is twofold: Jesus lives and Jesus is Lord. Both convictions are grounded in experience. Some of Jesus' followers experienced him after his death as a figure of the present, not just of the past. And they experienced him as a divine reality, now "one with God" and "at the right hand of God." Many of these experiences were visions. Paul's experience of the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus, described three times in Acts 9, 22, and 26, and referred to by Paul in Galatians 1, was clearly a vision. It happened a few years—three to five—after the death of Jesus. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul refers to his experience as belonging in a list of other visions of Jesus—to Peter, the twelve disciples (though obviously not to Judas), James, and five hundred people at the same time. Visions are about "seeing," as the word implies. Often visions involve seeing and hearing a person in bodily form and can even include tactility, a sense of touching or being embraced. But visions do not always include seeing a bodily form. As Acts describes Paul's vision of the risen Christ, Paul saw a brilliant light, but not a bodily form. Then a voice identified the brilliant light as Jesus. Yet Paul can say, as he does 1 Corinthians 9:1, "I have seen the Lord." In addition to visions of Jesus, I think there were non-visionary experiences of the same presence and power that his followers had known in Jesus during his historical life. "The Spirit of the Lord" was upon him, as the gospels put it, and his followers continued to experience the same Spirit after his death. And there was something about these experiences that led to the second meaning of Easter in the gospels and the New Testament. Not only that Jesus lives, that he is a figure of the present and not just of the past, but that he is "Lord"—a divine reality, one with God and having the qualities of God, at "the right hand of God." So Paul refers to the risen Jesus in Acts and his letters: Jesus is Lord. So also in the story of Thomas in John 20. When Jesus appears to him, Thomas exclaims, "My Lord and my God!" In both Matthew 28 and Luke 24, we are told that his followers "worshipped" the risen Jesus. This second meaning of Easter distinguishes experiences of Jesus from other experiences of somebody who has died. Studies suggest that about half of surviving spouses will have at least one vivid experience of their deceased spouse. But if they do, they do not exclaim "My Lord and my God," as if their spouse is now Lord and one with God. But there was something about the experiences of Jesus after his death that led to this exclamation. They were "numinous" experiences—experiences of the sacred—and not just "ghostly" experiences of a dead person. A Physical/Bodily Resurrection? Because of the common meaning of "physical/bodily" in modern English, I do not think the resurrection of Jesus means this. Physical/bodily means fleshly, molecular, protoplasmic, corpuscular existence. But the risen Jesus is not in this sense a physical/bodily reality. The resurrection stories in the New Testament make that clear. The risen Jesus appears in a locked room (Jn. 20). He journeys with two of his followers for a couple of hours and is not recognized, and when he is recognized, he vanishes (Lk. 24). He appears in both Jerusalem (Luke and John) and Galilee (Matthew and John). He appears to Stephen in his dying moments (Acts 7). He appears to Paul in or near Damascus as a brilliant light (Acts 9). He appears to the author of Revelation on an island off the coast of Turkey in the late 90s of the first century (Rev. 1). These texts are not about Jesus being restored to his previous life as a physical being. If such events happen, they are resuscitations: resuscitated persons resume the finite physical life they had before, and will die again someday. Whatever affirming the resurrection of Jesus means, it does not mean this. Moreover, what would it mean to say that the risen Jesus is a physical/bodily reality? That he continues to be a molecular, protoplasmic, corpuscular being existing somewhere? Does that make any sense? How can the risen and living Jesus be all around us and with us, present everywhere, if he is bodily and physical? A Mystical/Spiritual Resurrection? I also decline this option because of the widespread associations of these words in modern English. To call something "mystical" or to say "sounds like mysticism" commonly means that you don't need to take it seriously. And given the modern world-view in which the physical and material are assigned a greater reality than "the spiritual," to speak of the resurrection of Jesus as "spiritual" assigns it a lesser and commonly unimportant significance. It's "just spiritual," not really real. This is unfortunate, for the ancient meanings of "mystical" and "spiritual" suggest a reality that is more important, more significant, than the space-time world of our ordinary everyday experience. In the pre-modern meanings of "spiritual" and "mystical," the resurrection of Jesus was both: the spiritual is about "the really real" and the mystical is about knowing, experiencing, "the really real." The central meaning of Easter is not about whether something happened to the corpse of Jesus. Its central meanings are that Jesus continues to be known and that he is Lord. The tomb couldn't hold him. He's loose in the world. He's still here. He's still recruiting for the kingdom of God. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Marcus J. Borg is professor emeritus in the philosophy department at Oregon State University, where he held the Hundere Chair in Religion and Culture, and author of the New York Times bestselling _Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time_ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060609176/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=patheoscom04-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0 060609176) , _The Heart of Christianity_ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060730684/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=patheoscom04-20&linkCode=as2&camp=178 9&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060730684) , _The Last Week_ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060845392/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=patheoscom04-20&lin kCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060845392) , and _Jesus_ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061434345/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=patheo scom04-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0061434345) . His new book, _Speaking Christian_ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061976555/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=patheoscom04-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creativ e=9325&creativeASIN=0061976555) , has just been released by HarperOne. Borg was an active member of the Jesus Seminar when it focused on the historical Jesus and he has been chair of the historical Jesus section of the Society of Biblical Literature. -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community _<[email protected]>_ (mailto:[email protected]) Google Group: _http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism_ (http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism) Radical Centrism website and blog: _http://RadicalCentrism.org_ (http://radicalcentrism.org/) -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: _http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism_ (http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism) Radical Centrism website and blog: _http://RadicalCentrism.org_ (http://radicalcentrism.org/) -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org
