Re: [RC] [ RC ] The Religious Right simply doesn't get it --Indendent Outlook

[David R. Block]

Title: ORourke1 Signature

Cronyism is a form of corruption, no?? More below. "Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine."--P. J. O’Rourke On 10/16/2011 11:26 PM, bil...@aol.com wrote: 10/16/2011 8:37:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, david.r.bl...@verizon.net writes:     Comrade Billy, No, actually we do get it. And we do see the "injustice." We would like to think that the "injustice" is caused by FAIR results of people with different skills in the work place and different values that the market places on those skills, and not cronyism.   Who said anything about cronyism ?  To be sure, that can be and often is part of the mix, but my point has little to do with cronyism and a lot to do with the structure of the economic system at large  --including its basic premises. DRB: See question above.   Are there times when the market is fair ?  Obviously. Are there times when it is unfair ?  We all know that this also is undeniably true. In any case, it is simply empirically false that it is always fair. Indeed, someone's thumb is always on the scale in some sector of the market. Can be Goldman Sachs, can be Ichann, can be Milliken, can be Enron, and  --as you would be quick to say--  can be various gvt interests.   To glorify the market as perfect ( blessed be the Holy Prophet, Milton Friedman )  is as false to the facts as anyone can get    --it doesn't matter how good it sounds in theory, this is manifestly not how the world works. DRB: I will try to stay away from what nice fuzzy thoughts that I "would like to think" then and return to my abject cynicism. How DARE I make a positive statement about free markets. Thumbscrews and the rack for me, then.           Somehow, the cronyism of this administration is something you credit to the "religious right" with as one says that they are on the side of "greed and corruption."   Not sure whose talking points you are citing but they have nothing at all to do with me. In fact I cannot make sense of the above. Where on God's green earth in anything I have ever said do  I credit the cronyism of  the BHO  WH to the Religious Right ? That is 180 degrees the opposite of my views   Listening to an excess of Rush these days ? DRB: Nope. He doesn't come in too well inside a mainframe computer installation, but don't let that stop you. Oh, I see that you didn't.   To which I respond "WTF???" This administration is in that shit so deep that they need a submarine. We have Solyndra, which a Republican administration turned down and a Democratic administration favored, and now I am to believe that their giving to the Democratic party to get these taxpayer guaranteed loans and their bankruptcy is the fault religious right supporting "greed and corruption." We have GE, whose campaign contributions to Obama in 2008 are legendary and which did not pay 1 CENT in corporate taxes in 2009 (or was it 2010?). So I repeat, "WTF????????????????????" Who is on the side of greed and corruption?? President Goldman Sachs. And he and other Democrats "recognize" and "sympathize" with the complaints by being major causes of same. And they get a pass.   Preaching to the choir as if the choir believes something else.   Welcome to the O'Really?? Factor, the ALL spin zone. >:o What we are looking for on the religious right is something that does NOT look down that shop-worn and just about always failed Marxist road. That's where most of the protesters seem to want to go.   Most ?  That is the view of Will and Boortz, etc,  but the point to make is that no-one can really say. Young kids + 20 somethings have any number of off-the-wall ideas, but how does anyone actually know what most of the movement wants except to criticize the money establishment ?  From what I can tell so far, to the extent there is a critique to be inferred,  it has a lot more to do with Kevin Phillips' economic views far more than it does with classical Marxism or neo-Marxism. DRB: It is also the view of several online picture galleries, a few videos, and even Reuters and AP photographs. All certainly tools of the right to keep the proletariat down.       We are looking for something that works better, not for something that has failed all of Eastern Europe, the USSR, and even China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Nicaragua and more. Why did China implement "market reforms?" Because old "tried and true" Marxism was failing at every turn. I don't see the USSR as progress, unlike my progressive brethren. Boilerplate . DRB: Totally false then. I'll have to pick up that term. Fits some of the rest of this that you wrote as weil.   Look, I am 100 % certain that a certain number of the protestors are Leftists and that another number are Anarchists. Not in dispute. But to paint the whole movement with a wide brush strikes me as about as fair as Lefty criticisms of the Tea Party as all being the same as the farthest off-the-edge people in that movement.   This said, could be that the fringe captures the movement, always a danger. I remain skeptical. But I sure hope this turns out for the best.   Capitalism, for all of its faults, still works better than the rest,   Sure it does, but as things are,  only in the sense that Churchill described democracy. Democracy he said, to paraphrase closely, is often  inefficient , it is prone to errors of many kinds, it often is unfair, it can be wasteful,  it includes criminal elements, etc, but it happens to be better than all other political systems on Earth.   Capitalism is anything but God's revelation to humanity. It is filled with imperfections of many kinds, and to worship it as if it is perfect is, to put it in such terms,  a  form of idolatry. It simply isn't and has always had major problems with distribution of wealth. DRB: Can't see where I invoke God. Perhaps you could point that out to me.   I have no interest at all in furthering the interests of either party beyond what makes sense in any given election. To me the GOP is simply, this time around, a better alternative. But do I like its orthodoxies ?  Actually I think most of its orthodoxies are false. Yet in 2011 the orthodoxies of the Democratic Party are worse. That's the only real difference as I see it.   As far as "positives go, since neither party is 100 % wrong, I'm about as likely to take a Left position as one on the Right, but always only as an Indy with no love at all for either party and wishing both parties would self-destruct. The criticisms of the hard Right about Independents not quite always completely miss the point of being an Independent. So do the criticisms of the hard Left. But only rarely can anyone win elections unless they get Indy votes and Indies are anti-partisan , which is why they are Independent. Because an Indy doesn't agree with all or even most of one party, say the GOP, does not at all mean that he is a Democrat, or has imbibed Leftist views through and through. Its always issue by issue and it is always with the attitude that both major parties are full of  #%&@. Not sure why this is a difficult concept.   but don't worry, these folks will be happy to screw that up for us and call it "progressive." Progress back to 1917, but progress!!! David   "Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine."--P. J. O’Rourke On 10/16/2011 1:00 PM, bil...@aol.com wrote: Worthwhile article that points out a number of shortcomings in the OWS movement. Personally, like Mark Tooley, cited in the essay, some of the "names" who have climbed on board the movement "train" make me unhappy ;   and the O-so--relevant wing of the Religious Left basically strikes me as more of a hopeless anachronism  than anything else.   Regardless, to not see the injustice of the current economic system, something demanding serious change, is worse than short sighted. Prayer may be a good thing for the soul, but the injustices of the economic system are not going to be "prayed away" Nor will they disappear due to criticisms of redistribution of wealth. As if, in an economy where there are 4 or 5 applicants for each job there is some sort of alternative. The Right comes off as uncaring, tone deaf, and on the side of greed and corruption.   To say the least, in politics this is not where you want to be.   Billy   ========================================================   Conservative Leader Tries to Distance Christianity From Occupy Wall Street Protests Fri, Oct. 14, 2011 Posted: 04:31 PM EDT Religious leaders who align themselves with the Occupy Wall Street crowd should not make claims that the nationwide uprisings have anything to do with Christianity, says the president of the Institute on Religion & Democracy. Mark Tooley, whose advocacy group works toward reaffirming the church’s biblical and historical teachings, said in a statement from IRD that the “Religious Left” has heaped too much praise on those whose “demands range from cancellation of all debt, open borders, government control of health care and free college education, among other expansions of Big Government.” Tooley aims his argument at leaders such as Sojourners’ Jim Wallis, who Tooley said “has lavished praise during a visit to the occupiers.” He is also weary of pacifist activist Shane Claiborne, who “has compared them to St. Francis of Assisi,” and Massachusetts clergy who have “joined them wearing saintly white robes.” He also stated that he has a problem with officials of United Methodist Women who “flocked to the occupiers with their own similar placards urging class warfare.” Tooley is only sympathetic toward some of the occupiers to a small degree. "The many college-age Wall Street occupiers concerned about college debt and real world responsibilities can be possibly excused for youthful naiveté,” Tooley stated in the IRD release. “But middle-aged church activists, some of whom may be trying to relive their street activism of 40 years ago, should show more discernment and wisdom.” Crowds of varying sizes occupying cities and town squares around the country seem to be part of a leaderless movement with many complaints, say observers. Many on the sidelines are having a hard time deciphering what message OWS is trying to send. However, emerging from protesters is the proclamation that "corporate greed and corrupt politics" must be stopped. At an interfaith gathering at Zuccotti Park in New York Sunday, the Rev. Michael Ellick of Judson Memorial Church promised that he and others in the faith community would support the occupiers for the long haul. "We will not tire. We will not falter. We will stand with you in every city, every state, every country," Ellick said. "And whatever [the protesters] need, the faith community of New York will be there to give it to them." Tooley disagrees with Ellick and others who share his sentiment. "Covetous battle cries for class resentment and even greater coercive wealth redistribution through an ever-expanding Big Government do not resemble traditional Christianity,” Tooley stated. "Unlike the Religious Left, voices who have hailed and even romanticized the Wall Street Occupation, wise religious leaders should call their flocks to the common good. They would know that in a fallen world, no government or system of laws can seize property or massively redistribute income without creating even greater injustice. "The Scriptures call for believers to put away childish things. Religious activists who have aligned with the Wall Street Occupation should model mature Christian discernment, not echo angry resentments that dream of a secular utopia," he added. In addition to working to reaffirm the church's biblical and historical teachings, the IRD strives to strengthen and reform the church’s role in public life, protect religious freedom and renew democracy at home and abroad, according to its mission statement. Contact: alex.muras...@christianpost.com Alex Murashko Christian Post Reporter Copyright © Christianpost.com. All rights reserved.   -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <RadicalCentrism@googlegroups.com> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <RadicalCentrism@googlegroups.com> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org