Billy Looking at the situation you mentioned below starting with: " One of the causes of WWII was WWI. And World War I did not need to happen. Wilson lied to the US and then got us into an insanely ridiculous war. Correct, so far, so good." We can look at the positive aspects as they exist for us. Thanks to both WWs we (the US) we able to vault from up and coming underdog nation to number one in record time. Without the decimation of Europe and Japan the road to the top would probably have been infinitely longer. The negatives are the free world's failure to make a detailed study of the post WWII situation. We often talk about "winning the war' and "Who won WWII?". The big winners cannot not be measured by nationalist ideas of nations because the people of all nations allied or axis lost. Who won? or rather "What won?" was the corporate world. While the Nazis, the Fascisti and the Japanese nationalists (as well as the allied leaders) no longer exist some things do. And they are doing even better today because of the war. Those entities are Mercedes-Benz who made the engines for Germany's Tiger and Panther tanks, aircraft engines and German military vehicles, Krupp who made the artillery including the super Big Bertha type cannons, Bayer and Mengele pharmaceuticals who made both the medicine for the troops and many of the poisons to kill concentration camp prisoners. Alfa Romero whose engines powered Mussolini's armored corps as well as other vehicles, Fiat, Beretta. In Japan Mitsubishi who designed and manufactured the famous Japanese Zero that had a kill ration of supreme numbers overall, Kawasaki whose steel production fueled the Japanese military as did their aircraft production. They are all still going full blast today and are very successful enterprises. On the other side there is in the US, Ford, GM, Boeing Aircraft, etc. The Brits still have Rolls-Royce whose Merlin class engines made the Spitfire and the P-51invincible aircraft. The Soviet AK-47 the most produced long arm in history brought and is still bringing the new Russian Republic untold wealth. And I have mentioned only a few corporations as examples. All these things I have mentioned had and have today long term consequences both positive and negative depending on where one is standing. TR and Asia: Look back (hind-sight is always 20/20) TR's faith in Japan was misplaced and you know very well that I am a die-hard Japanophile having studied there and lived there for a decade. But we must call a spade a spade. TR is not to be blamed for his misplaced trust. It has to do with the times. At the turn of the century we really knew little about East Asia and it's trends. By 1900 Japan looked like a super power-house nation while China was struggling with the Western view that it was "The sick man of Asia". China had garnered this reputation under Manchu rule which was slipping fast having many external foes but whose biggest problem were the Han Chinese who were sick of Manchu domination and wished to recoup the power they had lost 2.5 centuries earlier. Our (the West) mistake was to think of China as finished. We thought this because we did not take into account the previous 4000 years of Chinese history and culture. China was the weak man of Asia from, let's say 1850 to 1910. Sixty years which seems like a long time to us but when you country has 4000 plus years of history this is less than a drop in the bucket. Wen your society is that old you know the meaning of the word patience. In less time than the Ching dynasty (one of the shorter ones 300 years) China went from a monarchy and sick man of Asia to a republic to communism to a corporate state. It might have taken a bit longer but we probably should have gone with China in 1900. It is after all the Rome of East Asia but different from Rome it is not a nation with a dead that has faded into the past . No wonder the Phoenix is a revered bird in Asia. I went to school-in Japan with a Chinese boy from Shanghai who is today a very successful factory owner. He said the (45 years ago) when we were innocent kids. "China will never remain communist. If anything it will transform communism into something very Chinese if it doesn't disappear altogether." I asked him why he believed this and he told me, "There are two things you cannot prevent the Chinese people from doing." What are they i asked "Making business and gambling." two things that run counter to communist doctrine. There is a saying in Chinese "No one ever conquers China, China passively conquers her conquerors.". The mongol Genghis Khan is a great example of the truth of this refrain.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? --- On Tue, 12/20/11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [RC] [ RC ] Military Expansionism & etc etc To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, December 20, 2011, 5:24 PM One of the causes of WWII was WWI. And World War I did not need to happen. Wilson lied to the US and then got us into an insanely ridiculous war. Correct, so far, so good. It war left Germany...and virtually all of Europe in a mess. The disastrous Weimar Republic was created in Germany which created hyperinflation and ultimately economic collapse. That set the stage for the fascists who told Germans they could restore their pride and their economy. ------------------------------------------------ Here is where the problems begin. Rather than blame the USA, which was not even in the war until 1917, there are other far more plausible explanations for what happened : 1. French insistence on the Versailles Treaty, which left Germany with huge indemnities it could not pay without bankrupting itself., which it did, a mess that spiraled out of control, with a cure that was worse than the disease, namely hyper-inflation. The USA, far from being supportive of the treaty, was against it, and the Brits were not happy with it either although they felt they had to go along with France. But if I remember this correctly, Keynes, then a young advisor, was aghast at the terms and predicted really bad stuff would happen. 2. Deflationary pressures made things worse than they should have been because the gold standard was completely unrealistic. Basically not nearly enough precious metal to sustain it. A mixed metal ( gold + silver ) system with a good % of wealth calculated in terms of national assets might have worked but at the time it was gold or nothing. Which was pure stupidity. 3. Weimar was anything but an ideal republic, but no-one had any idea it would turn out as badly as it did. What part did America play in the failure of Weimar ? Nothing. As for FDR, if there was baiting, as Buchanan suggests, if the fish was not hungry, any baiting would have been pointless. As for Buchanan, as soon as he starts his neo-isolationist stuff is when I stop listening. Otherwise I really admire him and was a supporter in 1996 and was at least qualifiedly OK with him in 2004. But he has been an isolationist since he was in diapers and that view, IMHO, is crazy. In the 30s it was especially crazy, like asking a kid at school to be a pacifist in a playground full of bullies. Isolationism / non-interventionism , take your pick, both policies are irresponsible in the world we actually live in. There is no way to even BE non-interventionist when every other country outside of various allies wants us to fail and tries with all their resources to defeat us. Especially Islamic countries. We should roll over and play dead ? I don't think so. In other words, RP is delusional. As for the 1930s, Japan was gobbling up one country after another. Therefore, we should do nothing ? Like today, Muslims are on the warpath wherever you look. And what do we hear from you-know-who ? Its all America's fault. That outlook is pure bull. In 2008, for all the problems of that year, the GOP still could have pulled off a victory. The party chose to jump off a cliff. Looks to me that there is a really good chance it could happen again. Billy ========================================= The world wide depression did not occur out of thin air. Nor did Hitler. As to the Pacific aspect of the war, there is a fascinating new treatise that purports that your hero FDR baited Japan and pushed the US into war covertly. I am sure a great historian such as yourself would have looked into this history. http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2011/12/06/did-fdr-provoke-pearl-harbor/ These pompous Progressives were war mongerers. They believed they could reshape the world and they did. Note to Chris's query. A conservative is someone who believes this history could have been avoided if we had been smarter and more humble. Kevin Not the result of military expansionism : Maybe the original 13 colonies / states, although there was a ( military ) revolution that dragged along with it a good number of local communities that were loyalist. the Louisiana purchase the Gadsden purchase the Virgin Islands the state of Washington, although there was threat of military action at the time " " " Hawaii " " " " " " " " " " Alaska Everything else was the result of military expansion Causes of WWII ? # 1 and far away most important, the Depression # 2 the rise of totalitarian ideologies, Fascism / Communism # 3 dysfunctional European political policies in GB, France, etc plus policies of various colonial powers in the Pacific WWI created the conditions for a military industrial complex ? ? ? After WWI we demobilized almost completely. We had an army of about 250,000 in 1940, the smallest for a country of our size of any nation in the world. We were, except for the Navy, ridiculously unprepared for WWII. There was NO military-industrial complex in 1940, that idea is unfounded. Where does that idea come from, if I may ask ? Whoever came up with it is anything but an historian and simply does not know what he / she is talking about. If you are going to make historical generalizations it would be a really good idea to actually study relevant history. Liberal Fascism is a really interesting book with a lot to say, but it is anything but the last word on many of the subjects it covers. Billy -================================================== 12/20/2011 12:14:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: It all went South with entry into WW1 when America sent millions to fight overseas. That created the conditions for WWII and the military industrial economy and we have been stuck in the interventionist mindset ever since. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Kervick To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [RC] [ RC ] Military Expansionism Perhaps we are talking about degree. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:22 PM Subject: [RC] [ RC ] Military Expansionism Actually, James Polk, no 20th century liberal, was responsible for the War with Mexico that added the SW, California, and Texas to the USA, and that was the 1840s. But military expansionism dates to the Revolution itself even if our various attempts to conquer Canada fell flat, both then and in 1812. There also was a threat of war with Canada as late as "54-40 or fight," also under Polk. BTW, Ben Franklin favored military expansion. So did other Founders, not least George Washington. So did TR, then a Republican , in the 1890s, and for quite a while we had the Philippines, and still have Guam and PR from that era. These are established facts that are not in the least dispute. Billy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12/20/2011 11:09:48 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I agree with that Chris. To me conservative = classical liberal or constitutionalist. Military expansionism is actually a liberal idea that began in the early 20th Century. Kevin If Paul is the most conservative candidate, how do you define conservative? I don’t resonate well with either label, liberal or conservative. Both terms are bloated with contradictory meanings that are in the eye of the beholder. Chris From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kevin Kervick Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:36 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [RC] Age of Ron Paul I like to use the term, Independent Conservative to show that he is conservative. He has the most conservative voting record in the House. The Independent label refers to the fact that he does not toe the line with neoconservatives and Progressives who say they are conservatives. His opponents and the media use libertarian to paint him as something other than conservative. I believe paul is the most conservative candidate in the race, bar none. Kevin Kevin, >From your article, “Why are they so afraid of Ron Paul? They are afraid >because his message does not fit their increasingly outdated and tired >narrative. If people begin to embrace Paul’s independent conservative message, >many of them will undoubtedly stop listening to dinosaur Conservatives on the >airwaves.” First sentence is great and I think true. Second sentence, I am confused by your use of the term “conservative” to define Paul. To me, he doesn’t fit into the normal bi-polar liberal-conservative box. Why bother to put a conservative label on him? Chris ------------------------------------------ Christopher P. Hahn, Ph.D. Constructive Agreement, LLC [email protected] P.O. Box 39 , Bozeman , MT 59771 (406) 522-4143 (406) 556-7116 fax ------------------------------------------ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kevin Kervick Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:10 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [RC] Age of Ron Paul http://www.examiner.com/independent-in-manchester/the-age-of-ron-paul-panics-the-conservative-and-gop-establishments Discovering Possibility: A Common Sense Conservative Manifesto (For Classical Liberals Too) is available at www.discoveringpossibility.com. The book offers a sociological perspective and corresponding culture change approach, that relies on the principles of classical liberalism and a Deistic spirituality and promotes four pillars of community - freedom, personal responsibility, neighborliness, and thrift. All proceeds from Discovering Possibility go toward the furtherance of our mission at A Place for Possibilities, www.aplaceforpossibilities.org, a 501 (c) 3 educational nonprofit corporation. Also, check out my writing about Independent politics on Examiner.com at http://www.examiner.com/independent-in-manchester/kevin-kervick -- -- -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org
