Why do we need faith at all ? Mike : Your's is one of the best questions that has been asked here, ever. What I don't have is an off-the-shelf answer. But maybe a few part-answers might make a little sense. First of all, though, how do you define "faith" ? Personally, I do not define it as belief. To me, while maybe there is some element of belief as part of the picture, or more like various "what ifs," belief is anything but the crux of faith. Is faith a matter of supplication to a higher being ? Not at all. The Zoroastrians have a custom of praying while standing, " face to face with the Almighty " as it were, on the view that God does not want servants as followers, he wants human beings who have courage and integrity, who can take responsibility and show initiative. Who can say if God exists ? I don't know. In any case, this attitude strikes me as all for the good, and wholesome, based on really excellent values. The ancient Sumerians had another approach. For them God was supposed to be their protector. They took responsibility for the institutions of religion, all of which played some vital part in community maintenance ( like temple banking, distribution of surplus where needed, helping widows and orphans, organizing community festivals and markets, facilitating love between men and women, and etc ), and they also maintained family altars to show their attachment to the various deities who they believed were part of an extended divine family. However, if there were setbacks, if times got really tough, etc, they would complain loudly to God / Goddess and express their displeasure. Maybe not always, sometimes they might think that bad fortune was deserved for their own failures, but when problems were perceived as unjustly falling on them they let their God or Goddess know that they were most unhappy, and "just who do you think you are, God, making life so miserable for me / us ? " Personally, I find this attitude most refreshing. It is honest, shows spunk, and is not filled up with pious emotions to the effect that humans are always wrong and God is always right. I don't think that such a model of Spirit is valid, sometimes people do get shafted, and where is "God" when this kind of thing happens ?: Groveling before God has always struck me as unjustifiable. Sometimes the question needs to be addressed to God : " Hey, where were you when I needed you the most ? " "God" it seems to me, is imperfect, limited, and only an approximation of our ( anyone's ) Ideal image of deity. In effect, while far greater in various ways than any mortal, God is human-all-too-human. Faith, then, must be conditional. Rabbi Harold Kushner's book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" is crucial. I think Kushner gives too much benefit of doubt to God, but his argument makes a lot of sense otherwise. Who says that God is omnipotent ? Satan exists, after all. and by that fact, God's powers are less than total. This being the case, some things God cannot do, or can only do them in the long run. Sometimes Satan calls the shots and that is that. Still, this, to me, features some obvious question begging. How was it that God allowed Satan to exist in the first place ? To "test" human beings ? What a crock. I don't buy that explanation for one minute. What, then, really accounts for Satan ? God's incompetence ? A bad mistake God made aeons ago ? I don't know, but Satan's existence is completely unjustifiable, immoral, wrong, and intolerable. By not destroying Satan, God has at least some responsibility for Satan's existence. Does Satan really exist ? Just heard some recollections on the part of, I think, he son of a soldier who fought in WWII and who had taken part in the liberation of Buchenwald. If I remember this correctly, the soldier said to the son, "I'm not a religious man, but after seeing the concentration camp and what --who-- was in it, I can tell you that I am completely convinced that Satan exists." My view exactly. Not just because of the Nazis and their atrocities, also because of Stalin and his, Mao and his, Pol Pot and his, because of the genocides committed by Muslims since the beginnings of Islam, and on and on, to include countless acts of cruelty by street gangs, organized criminals, corrupt politicians and including such things as all those responsible for the mess on Wall Street of 2007 -2011, so far, with more millions of lives ruined. Not even counting the huge problems caused by sexual nihilism. All of this is caused by pure chance or random mistakes ? I don't buy that for one minute either. There is huge evil in the world and it has its own source. So, where does this leave us miserable worms, as Luther once put it, basically helpless against the worst that can be thrown against us, whether natural disasters or the actions of dirty sons-of-bitches, sometimes commanding armies ? It leaves us under protection of a God / Gods who may or may not give a damn, or even if someone up there cares, a God who is incompetent, or weak, or has other priorities. Concerning such a God, I , for one, am not impressed. However, this is not the end of the story. Not at all. What about us as people ? What about you or anyone you care about ? What about rising to the level of being and doing your best ? Isn't that something of the highest possible value ? How do you get there ? By putting "me" first ? By pure selfcenteredness ? You know the answer. People who put themselves first , last, and always are looked down on for good reason. They are rotten bastards or, at best, brain damaged. They are, if not in all things, in a number of important things, immoral. And everyone knows it. How do we conceive what is best in any man or woman ? There are a number of ways, but I think the most important is the example of Christ. It does not matter to me if Jesus is son-of-God, or divine or whatever. Nor does it matter if there is life after death, although that might be really nice. But no point in worrying about it. Let's say that when we die, that's it. The reward for all our sacrifices lifelong is a big fat zero. For me, however, this changes nothing. Christ, clearly, in many ways, shows us the best in us, in any of us. And he gave his life for what he believed was right. The least I can do is my bit to help out in some way in a "project" that now is 2000 years old. Admitting that I screw up repeatedly and have a thousand flaws of one kind or another : Some shortcomings I really wish I did not have, included. Yet, I also have some actual talents and at a minimum I want to pitch in. Faith ? Maybe not the usual way to use the term, but perhaps you get the point. Sign me up. This is the side I want to be on. It is what I believe in. But I have no idea if God exists or any of that. Yes it would matter if there was some way of knowing, but there isn't, so, in another sense it really doesn't matter at all. The counterpart is Goddess, or Holy Spirit. At the very least this is a reminder that we should live our lives in such a way that we bring beauty into the world, or safeguard or nourish beauty when it exists. This is also something that is best in us. Making the world a little more beautiful --or the same thing, a place where there is more knowledge, more truths are learned, and people are better able to think for themselves, and apply wisdom to their problems. Faith also is identifying with people who share these kinds of values. It doesn't have to be exact. But shared values matter greatly. This is very important and it is where the importance of building on faith seems to be most meaningful. All in all, it is a very Buddhist inspired view of Christian faith, but it is my view. It is the very best that I have been able to think through and reach a conclusion that makes real sense. Not just intellectually, but in terms of meaning in life that reaches deep inside. Sometimes this is very inspirational. And it allows me to really be me, "just as I am." No magic, no pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by. No illusions nor self delusions. No piousness, or very, very little. No pretense. No nonsense. And no damned lies. For me, this is faith. Why have faith ? For all of these reasons. And maybe for more reasons even if I don't know what they are. And, O yeah, the Bible --for all of its imperfections, and there are many-- it puts you in touch with all of this in innumerable ways and is a treasure. Not to be really literate in the Bible, well, that would be like never having read Shakespeare, or never having studied philosophy, life would be incredibly disadvantaged for the absence. There is one qualification : It is necessary to make informed judgements about what you read. I look at the Bible the way that Zoroastrians or Sumerians regard the Holy. Every last word is on trial as far as I am concerned --even if past tense is better for many parts that I no longer can argue with. Heck, some parts I can no longer live without. But it wasn't always like that. And some parts I now know exactly why I disagree strongly. So it is plus and minus, although with much more plus than minus. I am glad that I took the time and made the effort to be sure. Billy -------------------------------------------------------------------------
12/30/2011 [email protected] writes: Question: Why do we need faith at all? Pragmatically speaking, faith can have positive effects on one's psyche, and even just that alone can justify the concept, but why do we need to build upon that faith? Can't we just accept the positive effect that it give us, that it gives us a sense of comfort, and dispense with the mechanics? We build upon knowledge because it's grounded and tied to empirically verifiable and testable theses, but to live on rational leaps of faith and expecting those leaps to be as true as what is directly in front of us can lead to abstractions. Granted, it's not as bad as the divine command theory that extremists abide by, but it's still an unaccountable form. -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org
