Chris : What you have described is both new to me and something that has been a working hypothesis for many years. What is new is how clear your explanation is, how it connects a number of things that usually I put into different categories ; now I can see the connections. My problem isn't so much with feelings of connectedness, which enough people have reported and in ways that render doubts about their existence moot, but about the nature of the source and, for some people, the difficulty --even if they realize there is any problem-- in "knowing" if it is sacred or profane. Are all revelations real ? If we could somehow separate all bogus claims out, would all the "real" revelations be from God --whatever term you use, since Buddhists prefer a different vocabulary-- or would some be inspired, literally, by the Devil / some evil spirit, or even by some inner psychological disorder ? You can, of course, "know them by their fruits." Only limitation with this is that it may take years to see the results that a "prophet's" message produces. Is Warren Jeffs a prophet ? What a bad joke, he is a megalomaniac. But could anyone be sure back in, say, 1985 or 1990 ? Or take the case of Muhammad. Seems VERY obvious to me that he was inspired by Satan. But centuries of social conditioning, mixtures of Koranic theology with Christianity, and the good examples of some Muslims --like various Sufis-- and it is easy enough to see that any number of earnest Muslims today might swear that their religious experiences are real and good and blessed. So, yes, I think you are on to something important. Don't know if you have ever read the Tao Te Ching, but I see that kind of connectedness in Lao Tzu's thoughts. To use just one example. We could add still others. Alan Watts talked about this also, and he blended Christian faith and Buddhism. Or Aurobindo, or Kierkegaard, or even a spiritual poetess like Elizabeth Barrett Browning. OK, but we have to always be alert to deception, by others, or by evil that is "out there," or by self delusion. That's the qualification I would add. Regardless, many thanks for what you said. A lot to think about. Billy ========================================= 4/16/2012 4:17:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Billy, We know of the active spiritual connections recorded in the Bible such as Moses on the mountaintop and Abraham and Isaac. These are dramatic examples. On a less dramatic level I believe that humans, in general, are wired in a way that allows a direct connection with God. Prayer and other rituals may facilitate the active spiritual connection I reference; although, I don’t think rituals are required. Supernatural experiences may happen spontaneously. Some humans will feel this connection more strongly than others. Atheists and agnostics may totally block their receptiveness to make a connection with God, but I believe they still have the potential. This all relates to the discussion we had a while ago about prophets. True prophets have had spiritual connections, possibly repeatedly. Many spiritual connections are less dramatic and less obvious, but that doesn’t downplay the reality of these true connections with God. Religious structure may help us in our approach to the development of an active spiritual connection. A Baptist revival, deep prayer, fasting, meditation, a Pentecostal rapture, rousing music, and chants (I am enthralled by Buddhist chants) may allow us to open ourselves to the spiritual realm. Mystics may isolate themselves for years. I have little experience with things like Hail Mary’s and rosary beads. It is possible that these rituals may also be a catalyst to spiritual experiences. Chris From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:53 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: Beyond Religion Re: [RC] Tim Keller, Ross Douthat, and Christianity's Dec... Chris : Any chance that you can "flesh out" what you mean when you say-- "active spiritual connection" Sounds about right, but I'm not at all sure if I really understand what you are saying. Thanks Billy ========================================= 4/16/2012 3:37:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: In addition to “heart and mind”, I would suggest that true religious understanding requires an active spiritual connection. The religious pedagogy helps frame the structure of approaching God and interpreting spiritual responses. Chris From: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) _[mailto:[email protected]]_ (mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]) On Behalf Of Dr. Ernie Prabhakar Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:32 PM To: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) Cc: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) Subject: Beyond Religion Re: [RC] Tim Keller, Ross Douthat, and Christianity’s Decline in USA HI Billy, On Apr 16, 2012, at 3:27 PM, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) wrote: Ernie : " I suspect you use "faith" in the latter sense..." Absolutely. What you'd expect from any Baptist, even a renegade who these days is part Buddhist, part Zoroastrian, etc, etc. Yeah, I hate to say it, but I think you've chosen the wrong word. "Religion" has too much invested in religious practice to mean what you want it to mean. "Metaphysics" is closer, if high-falutin. "Divinity" is more accurate, but archaic. "Theology" is too academic. I've actually been thinking about this in, of all things, a marriage counseling session. We don't have a good word for the rock-bottom, life-defining beliefs that religion is supposed to provide. "Beliefs" is too weak. "Conviction" a bit too sterile. "Myth" too derogatory, though arguably accurate. Words matter, at least if our goal is to communicate in a way that changes hearts and minds. I think we need some new ones... -- Ernie P. About liturgical churches, with their emphases on tradition / traditions., while I have few negative feelings, I also have little empathy. Rituals, at least speaking of ceremonial rituals, sacraments, outside of the least number possible, don't do anything for me whatsoever and seem to me to be a complete waste of time. The subject is : " actual *religious understanding* about who we are and what we should do" That's the bottom line and the top line and almost all the lines in-between. If someone wants to wear a "sacred thread" or make use of "holy water" I don't get all bent out of shape, but such practices, as I see it, are theater, not spirituality. Maybe some theater is OK in life but that manifestly is NOT what "religion" is really all about. Faith is a matter of the heart and the mind, especially the heart but only if this also means an alive and fully engaged mind. They are inseparable. Traditions have their place, and can have value, but they are strictly secondary. I cannot possibly see things any other way. This is what I assume and assume that others necessarily also assume. But, I think you are right, many people simply don't think this way at all. I'd like to persuade them of the value of my way of thinking but maybe what they all need is to become Baptists first. Something like that. This is tongue in cheek, but maybe you get what I mean. Religion as "add-on" to life, as tradition, isn't religion as "faith" at all. Billy ============================= 4/16/2012 2:59:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: HI Billy, On Apr 13, 2012, at 9:07 PM, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) wrote: So the question comes down to this, for anyone : Do you believe, deep down inside, that religious faith really is crucial to your life ? That, in a sense, nothing else could possibly be more important ? For if anyone answers "yes," then a foundation exists to move mountains. Maybe an awkward metaphor but hopefully the idea is clear enough. As usual, I think it is important to separate out two distinct issues. One is religious tradition, which is very useful in a whole bunch of ways, but at the end of the day, not really essential to living a good life. There are multiple incompatible but equally valuable rituals. The other is an actual *religious understanding* about who we are and what we should do. THAT is incredible vital, and changes everything. I suspect you use "faith" in the latter sense, but most people don't, which causes a whole mess of problems. -- Ernie P. = -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) > Google Group: _http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism_ (http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism) Radical Centrism website and blog: _http://RadicalCentrism.org_ (http://radicalcentrism.org/) -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org
