Too many of us must believe their lying eyes I guess… David
> On Nov 28, 2014, at 10:24 PM, BILROJ via Centroids: The Center of the Radical > Centrist Community <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Atlas Shrugs > November 21, 2014 > > Elliot Abrams: When presidents say Islam is a religion of peace, “the average > American thinks this is crap” > > “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” – > George Orwell. > > “Truth is the new hate speech.” – Pamela Geller > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > By Robert Spencer <http://www.jihadwatch.org/author/samir> > > It is good to see that this discussion took place at all, as usually it is > foreclosed with charges that even to broach it is “Islamophobic,” But as > usual, it was held on a quite superficial level, with Michael Gerson throwing > out knee-jerk moral equivalence arguments that don’t appear to have been > addressed adequately. Neither Gerson nor Abrams appear to have gotten into > the actual teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah, and without that, discussions > like these will always whirl around in the ether with attempts to compare the > virulence of various atrocities and acts of violence, and get nowhere. > “Should Presidents Call Islam a ‘Religion of Peace?’ Two George W. Bush > Officials Debate,” by Napp Nazworth, Christian Post > <http://www.christianpost.com/news/should-presidents-call-islam-a-religion-of-peace-two-george-w-bush-officials-debate-130014/>, > November 21, 2014: > > > <http://pullzone1.atlas.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Screen-Shot-2014-11-21-at-1.38.44-PM.png> > MIAMI BEACH — Two former George W. Bush administration officials, Elliot > Abrams and Michael Gerson, debated Monday whether it is appropriate for > presidents to call Islam a religion of peace. > > “What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I > think it’s very important that the United States government shut-up about > that question,” Abrams, senior fellow for Middle Eastern Studies at the > Council on Foreign Relations, declared at the Ethics and Public Policy > Center’s Faith Angle Forum. > > “It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I > was working, would say, ‘Islam is a religion of peace,’” continued Abrams, > who served as deputy assistant to the president and deputy national security > adviser. > > Abrams was speaking on a panel, “Religious Conflict and the Future of the > Middle East,” with Shadi Hamid, a fellow with the Project on U.S. Relations > with the Islamic World in the Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings > Institution. > > The “real response” to Bush, and later President Barack Obama, declaring the > Islam is a religion of peace, he said, should be “where is their theology > degree from?” > > “For American government officials to be telling Muslims, ‘I know real Islam’ > … is ridiculous,” he added. “… It would be an outrage about Judaism and > Christianity as well. … For government officials who are 99 percent > Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be > a fool’s errand.” > > Abrams’ comments came during the question and answer session and were not > part of his prepared remarks. The whole session lasted about three hours and > he made similar remarks later in the session in response to another > reporter’s question. > > When presidents say Islam is a religion of peace, “the average American > thinks this is crap,” he said, because the average American reasons that “the > only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don’t tell me it’s all > wonderful.” > > It would be better, Abrams continued, for political leaders to ask, “is there > something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider > to be terrible? And what’s the debate within Islam?” Because, “that’s a real > description of a real problem,” but, “saying ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ > isn’t [realistic].” > > After those remarks, Gerson asked for the floor to offer a different point of > view. > > “We do praise Christianity as a religion of peace on Christmas, we do praise > Judaism as a religion of courage on Hanukah and other things. We praise > Islam. And every president from now on will praise Islam on religious > holidays because their are millions of peaceful citizens who hold this view,” > he said. > > Gerson was a speechwriter for Bush and may have helped craft the statements > that Abrams found objectionable. He now works as a columnist for The > Washington Post. > > Presidential statements about Islam as a peaceful religion is not only proper > due to the many peaceful Muslims who are American citizens, Gerson continued, > it is also “theologically sophisticated” because presidents should promote > the cause of those who hold values consistent with democratic governance, and > this is not unique to Islam. > > “Every religious tradition,” he said, “has forces of tribalism and violence > in its history, background and theology; and, every religious tradition has > sources of respect for the other. And you emphasize, as a political leader, > one at the expense of the other in the cause of democracy. > > “That is a great American tradition that we have done with every religious > tradition that comes to the United States — include them as part of a natural > enterprise and praise them for their strongly held religious views, and > emphasize those portions that are most compatible with those ideals.” > > Abrams countered that Islam is different due to its relationship to > terrorists. By calling Islam a “religion of peace” after the Sept. 11, 2001, > terrorist attacks, Abrams said, Bush was “basically lying about the problem,” > because, … the terrorists “view themselves as good Muslims.” > > “How is that exclusively a problem with Islam?” Gerson responded, then > mentioned other religious groups, such as Christians in Nigeria, who commit > violence in the name of their faith. > > Where? > > Part of the role of political leaders, Gerson reiterated, is to acknowledge > the parts of every religious tradition that “encourage respect for the other.” > > Abrams conceded Gerson’s point but maintained that presidents are not doing > that when they call Islam a religion of peace because the presidential > statements lack the nuance of Gerson’s argument. > > “I think you’re being much more sophisticated than the political statements > that have been made, which are blanket statements that say, ‘this has nothing > to do with Islam,’” he told Gerson. > > “Well, it does have something to do with Islam … even if it is a perversion > of it, it has something to do with it, and the sophistication of that > statement I think would be interesting to hear from a political leader, but > we have not had that.” > > A similar debate between actor Ben Affleck and comedian Bill Maher recently > gained national attention. Affleck accused Maher of being “gross,” > “disgusting” and “racist” for claiming that most Muslims are unsupportive of > Democratic norms. > > That debate, however, saw both sides paint Islam with broad brushes. The > Faith Angle Forum panel, on the other hand, highlighted the complicatedness > of the religion and politics issues within Islam and especially in the Middle > East. > > “It was nice to see Ben Affleck defend Muslims,” said Hamid, an American > Muslim, during his prepared remarks. “It was well intentioned and a lot of us > were cheering him on because no one defends Muslims in the public sphere. At > the same time, Ben Affleck’s analysis was a bit superficial. … I do think > Islam is distinctive in how it relates to politics but I don’t think that is > necessarily good or bad, I think it just is.” > > > -- > -- > Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community > <[email protected]> > Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism > <http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism> > Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org > <http://radicalcentrism.org/> > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community" group. 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