Ernie: I agree with you completely that the Church should not be involved in physical conflict.
I make an exception for the historic past, the Crusades anyway, because, in that case, like it or not, the Church had considerable secular power and, in reality, the Holy Land was overrun by Muslim armies and posed a threat to all of Christendom if left unchecked. And shrines like the Church of the Holy Sepulcher had recently been destroyed by Muslims. But that was then, this is now. In our era we should do everything possible so that the Church is not dragged into physical war. However, a war of ideas is a very different thing. The passage in Revelation is important also because it gives us a picture of Jesus that shows, as clearly as anyone could want, that Christian faith is not all peace and harmony and prayerful walks through flower gardens. Sometimes you've gotta fight like hell, so to speak. Maybe the "fighting" isn't with guns or rockets but with words and media and advertising and radio broadcasts and TV and books, etc., but it still is a fight. Could be physical in exceptional circumstances, tho.' Like the Christians who volunteered to fight -with guns and bombs- against the Islamic State a few years ago. At that time the official forces of Iraq, etc, were incapable of doing much to prevent the slaughter of Christians (and others) at the hands of violent Muslim loonies, so, other Christians from all over the map, formed militias to defend fellow believers (and others) from the Muslim criminals. Its "High Noon" morality. If the bad guys are about to take over the town and wreck the community through violence and crime, and if you have a gun and know how to use it, it is your responsibility to do so. No-one else will do it for you and if you don't act there will be a bloodbath. I much (MUCH) prefer non-violence and think that non-violent means should always be our first preference. But the days when I was convinced that non-violence is always possible are over. That view just isn't true. Sometimes the choice is fight or die, simple as that. Worse, if you don't fight -physically- your inaction may result in the deaths of others, or result in rapes of wives and mothers and daughters, may result in looting of priceless treasures of a community's heritage, and so forth. Not to mention what kind of reaction you would get from others - wife, friends, your kids- if you did not fight while your buddies did fight and they saved the community from destruction. You would lose all respect. Sure, an exception for a medic who puts his life on the line, but in a fight what counts the most is actually fighting. If the fight is lost then all the medics in the world don't matter very much. All of this said, what we most need is a theology for a Holy War -of Ideas. Billy ________________________________ From: Centroids <drer...@radicalcentrism.org> Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 10:55 AM To: RadicalCentrism@googlegroups.com Cc: Billy Rojas Subject: Re: [RC] Christ " judges and makes war" - Jesus as warrior Exactly! Jesus is the only one who can truly make holy war. When we try to do it on his behalf — however justified at the start — it always ends badly. Can you think of any counter-examples? I totally accept the necessity for governments to pursue respectful just war, like Lincoln and Nimitz. I just don’t trust the church to do it. E Sent from my iPhone On Feb 4, 2019, at 10:13, Billy Rojas <1billyro...@buglephilosophy.com<mailto:1billyro...@buglephilosophy.com>> wrote: from the site: "Got Questions?" Question: "Why is Jesus going to return on a white horse?" Answer: In his vision of judgment upon the wicked, the apostle John tells us that Jesus is returning on a white horse: “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war” (Revelation 19:11<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev%2019.11>; see Psalm 45<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2045>). Most Bible scholars are of the opinion that this passage is not referring to the Rapture, but rather to Jesus’ coming to earth with His saints at the end of the Tribulation. The horse’s white color represents purity or victory (cf. Revelation 7:14-15<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev%207.14-15>), for this rider is holy and goes forth to be the triumphant conqueror. During ancient times, victorious Roman generals entered their conquered cities in chariots drawn by white horses. The entire setting of this verse implies victory over Christ’s enemies. As such, the word white indicates triumph, a successful war. What a vivid contrast we see in Jesus’ return with all His angels (Matthew 25:31<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%2025.31>), as compared to His entry to Jerusalem upon a donkey (Matthew 21:7-9<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%2021.7-9>)! He is no longer riding a humble donkey. Jesus will return on a fiery white charger, bringing judgment, just as He had promised (Matthew 25:31-33<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%2025.31-33>). Also by way of contrast, when He was on earth, Jesus was abandoned by His followers (Mark 14:50<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Mark%2014.50>). Revelation 19<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev%2019> reveals the armies of heaven following Him in conquest. He is not returning to speak “gracious words” (Luke 4:22<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Luke%204.22>) but the words of righteous judgment (Isaiah 11:4<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Isa%2011.4>). Jesus comes to rule with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:9<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%202.9>). He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (Revelation 17:14<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev%2017.14>; Revelation 19:16<https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev%2019.16>). -- -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <RadicalCentrism@googlegroups.com<mailto:RadicalCentrism@googlegroups.com>> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to radicalcentrism+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:radicalcentrism+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <RadicalCentrism@googlegroups.com> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to radicalcentrism+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
