Another thought occurred to me, and this is somewhat changing subjects, while still thrusting in the same general area ... there IS a threat to the current Ruby community, and you could make a case that it is from the enterprise, but it's not at all really, rather it is from some of our community colleagues "playing grown up" (phrase stolen from following article, which eloquently makes the case):
http://avdi.org/devblog/2009/05/12/playing-grown-up-the-rails-maturity-model/ Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Dave Bolton <[email protected]> wrote: > > This is the fundamental point ... : > > YOU have to come to US. We're not > > giving up our advantage out of charity. > > In all of this, You've not mentioned what these "dependencies" and implied > compromises actually are. > > I can't speak for Nutter, but as a formerly fulltime Rubyist, now fulltime > Java enterprise guy, I'd like nothing more than the "enterprisation" of > Ruby, which to me would mean: > 1. an easy to learn language > 2. fifty times more ruby developers (so I don't need to worry about > resourcing) > 3. a fast, stable, platform neutral language > > Point 1 is already there (yay!), but point 2 and 3 are not. But neither of > them would require any "dependencies" or compromises to what you do with > Ruby today. There'd be no "giving up our advantage". In fact, they'd just > make things better. > > If I was going to take a stab at what your objection really is, it might be > that a high grade of vendor involvement would not be a good thing (I'm > trying to channel your thoughts here, so I may be wrong), but to that I just > say: Java has driven by Sun from conception (similar to Microsoft and the > CLR), and designed around the JCP, which is all about big vendors. Ruby is > not and could not be structured this way. There are probably less than a > dozen people on the planet who really influence the direction of JRuby. > They're no threat to you and what you like to do. > > > But I will reject any call to change the nature of Ruby, or > > change the nature of the community that has made Ruby successful, for > > the sake of people who aren't willing to adopt the Ruby way but want > > to partake of its benefits. > > It's a battle cry without a battle. > > Cheers, > Dave > > P.S. Incidentally, and I'm aware even hinting at money is gauche, but I > know in some cases your compensation numbers aren't far off (at the top end > of the tree), and suffice to say going back to Java based work for me was > due to money and scope of the projects. > > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Pearson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On Jul 29, 6:12 pm, Pat Allan <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Joseph, you finished your initial rant talking about the awesomeness >> > of our community, but then stating 'This is business'. On some level, >> > sure - but that's so very much a secondary focus for myself. I love >> > solving problems, and creating things, and Ruby lets me do that in >> > ways that often make me happy. Do I make money from it? I most >> > definitely do. Do I want to stop anyone else from making money from >> > it? Fuck No. >> > >> > I appreciate the confirmation in more recent emails that it's not >> > about elites - but it still reads like it is, even in the later >> > emails. There's a distinct feel of us vs them, and that's the core of >> > what I'm railing (hah, no pun intended) against. >> >> >> Oh dear. I am perhaps one twirl of a moustache away from being cast as >> the villain of this piece. Alright, but before I submit to it, let's >> recap on what I'm *not* saying. >> >> This is not a class war between well-paid cubicle workers and ramen- >> profitable prophets. That was my own false dichotomy, and I heartily >> disclaim it. (Ben: I made the numbers up. Pour vous: http://is.gd/1SGkg) >> >> This is not about language wars. Ruby is awesomely successful, because >> most of us here love it and earn a living from it. Most of us would >> drop it in a heartbeat if something better was available, and that's >> as it should be too. Matthew, what does it matter if it is "seen as a >> secondary language"? >> >> This is not open-source vs proprietary. I create open source software, >> in fact I tend to release public domain code -- usually WTFPL. I would >> argue to the ends of the earth against proprietary platforms (which, >> Adam, I would say are much less adaptive -- you mention gems, but take >> a look at the rip initiative for a great example of how to enrich >> without breaking (unless, as James puts it with a remarkable mixed >> metaphor, that's a 'half-baked wet dream on Github')). But there's >> just no question that as an open source project grows, and certainly >> as it takes on enterprise consumers, it gathers increasingly >> significant dependencies. Inevitably, these generate inertia. If that >> is the trade-off for widespread adoption, how much are you willing to >> trade? >> >> This is not free love vs elitism or protectionism or being cooler-than- >> thou, or as Pat puts it well, "stopping anyone else from making money >> from [Ruby]". Neither end of that spectrum makes much sense. >> Personally, I love that we're able to do this. I love waking up every >> day to make this stuff, and eating ramen or better all the while. I >> certainly won't guard the gates, and I'll argue against anyone who >> does. But I will reject any call to change the nature of Ruby, or >> change the nature of the community that has made Ruby successful, for >> the sake of people who aren't willing to adopt the Ruby way but want >> to partake of its benefits. This is the fundamental point (and it >> seems Nathaniel's excellent point): YOU have to come to US. We're not >> giving up our advantage out of charity. >> >> So what is this? Perhaps as Pete implies (kindly, I thought), this is >> a rant without an interesting point. Or maybe there's something in it. >> It's an old discussion, but a good one to continue to have. If anyone >> wants to beat up the villain in person, I'll cop the blows at the >> Melbourne RORO meet tomorrow night. :) >> >> - J >> >> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
