This all seems to make sense to me, but I will wait on others to chime in - 
I still have questions about seat position and stem lengths - Is there any 
reason to ride the biggest you can, if you're *not* touring - if I want a 
'go fast' Rivendell, do I size down rather than up?

Comparing my San Marcos to my Hillborne, the former looks rather small, or 
the latter looks rather big, but they are also set up differently - doing 
some measurements however seems like I can ride the Hillborne with drops, 
with a shorter stem and be fine, albeit probably not as fast as my Macho 

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:37:29 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
> Starting a new thread about a topic that has interested me for a long 
> time, with a question: do slack angles and therefore (all else equal) 
> saddles well back of bb, work better with upright positions? Or perhaps, an 
> upright position works best with a rearward saddle and thus slack angles?
> I recall dithering about a nice Dave Moulton, at a very good price, 
> because of the 74* st angle, and being told that a racing position on a 
> racing bike means being forward over the crank assembly/bb shell. This was 
> confirmed by several experienced ex racers. I finally passed.
> The classic bolt upright ride seems to be the Raleigh DL-1, perhaps Dutch 
> city bikes (but I've no experience with them). Such slack angles, high bb 
> shell, and ends of grips practically bumping your knees. I've ridden many 
> such bikes and I've watched others ride them, and I know for a fact that 
> they very strongly discourage an energetic riding style -- if you try to 
> ride hard, you always (and I see others always) reposition the body to 
> negate the design -- lean forward, grab bar next to stem, sit on nose of 
> saddle).
> And then there's the gearing: stock on the DL-1 was 46/18 or 72 gi, iirc. 
> Even if 44/18, that's still 68". Even 68" on a very tall, 50 lb bike is 
> damned high.
> So the design must have been built with a (1) relaxed or energy conserving 
> and (2) ponderous or high torque/low rpm
> It's hard to understand why the DL-1 remained in production for so long; I 
> don't think that this extended product life can't be explained solely on 
> failing-socialist Indian and Chinese economic practices, or pure inertia.
> So something about this sort of riding position must work, and therefore 
> one presumes that Raleigh had worked out the riding style, and then the 
> position, and then the angles and lengths that were most efficient with 
> this position.
> Translate this into the upright Rivendells. These have low bbs, so that's 
> different; they also come with low gearing -- I get the impression that 
> these favor spinning, and not mashing?
> And the Rivs have startlingly long tts -- to countereffect the rearward 
> sweep of the bar and the slacker heads? So, this would mean a more 
> aggressive riding position, and therefore more spirited riding style, than 
> what the DL-1 was designed for.
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Eric Karnes < 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>> My guess that this is mostly a commentary on the use of fairly steep seat 
>> tube angles (73–75 degrees) on many road/sport/touring bikes from (very 
>> roughly) the 80s to present. This can make it very hard for some people to 
>> get a proper weight distribution without slamming the seat back, using an 
>> ultra-setback seatpost, or a combination of both. I had a mid-eighties Trek 
>> sport touring bike like this. I loved the way the frame rode, but the 73.5 
>> degree sta made it impossible for me to get comfortable.
>> [...]
>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 2:27:41 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> As a follow-up, I saw somewhere Grant writing that people like to slam 
>>> the seats ALL the way back - is this due to the upright bars / higher than 
>>> seat bars / upright posture on a bike?

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