I find everything is connected. As I move the seat further back, I need to 
lower the saddle to keep the distance to the pedals (and therefore pedal 
stroke) similar. I've also found that I prefer shorter crank arms (170 or 
even 165) on bikes with the seat further back. I suppose this makes logical 
sense...as you move the saddle back, a shorter crank compensates, keeping 
the distance to the pedals the same. But I just made that theory up on the 
spot and have absolutely no scientific basis for it...

On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 7:06:35 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
> How do you find having the saddle all the way affects your reach to the 
> pedals / pedal stroke?
> On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 5:57:19 PM UTC-4, Eric Karnes wrote:
>> Patrick: I've also found the same. I like to be back on the saddle when 
>> cranking at a low rpm. But prefer to be a bit further forward when I'm 
>> spinning with less resistance. Just my (completely unscientific) 
>> observations.
>> Rene: For you're sake, lets hope they graded on a curve! I've definitely 
>> found the same. The B17 always needed to be all the way back for me...even 
>> on a Riv. One of the reasons I think I'm more comfortable on the C17.
>> As for choosing the bike for drop versus upright... 
>> I just picked up a used Hilsen for a second bike...Woohoo! I ended up 
>> going with a 61cm, even though Riv sizing says my 89.75 pbh would be better 
>> on a 63. Though there is a bit more seatpost/stem showing then I like, I 
>> went with the 61 for a few reasons: (1) My 62cm SimpleOne fits me perfectly 
>> and shares the same top tube length as the 61 Hilsen. I know Riv downplays 
>> this, but for a long-legged, short-torsoed gentleman like myself, I try to 
>> pay attention to it; (2) I feel like I could use drops or upright bars on 
>> the 61, while the 63 would be too long and require a ridiculously short 
>> stem. Granted, I probably won't put drop bars on it anytime soon, but I 
>> like the feeling that it's possible; and (3) it was available at a good 
>> price and is a beautiful bike. That said, I may live to regret the choice. 
>> But like I say to my students when they ask if something will work, 
>> 'there's only one way to find out.'
>> Eric
>> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:52:15 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>> Eric: this agrees with what I read about saddle setback and weight on 
>>> hands; that a butt position behind the bb, no matter how this is achieved, 
>>> makes your torso muscles carry more weight and leaves less on your hands. 
>>> It certainly agrees, too, with my own experience -- a saddle too far 
>>> forward makes you support yourself on the bar.
>>> Of course there are other reasons for having more saddle setback; 
>>> pedaling torque is one that I notice -- I find myself scooting back when I 
>>> want to shove the pedals around at low rpm, for example, when climbing in a 
>>> fixed gear. 
>>> And the classic bolt-upright bikes certainly seem to "encourage" a 
>>> setback saddle. Look at the 3 photos below and see where the saddle nose 
>>> falls wrt the cranks.
>>> The omafiets looks horrible; yet, when I've ridden one -- no more than a 
>>> few hundred yards -- I have been surprised at how "lively" it feels; though 
>>> the bars hit my knees when I turn sharply.
>>> [image: Inline image 1]
>>> [image: Inline image 2]
>>> [image: Inline image 3]
>>> Ok, ok, yes, this is extreme, but whatta bout this one? Froome, 2016.
>>> [image: Inline image 4]
>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Eric Karnes <epka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Very good question. I have a similar understanding of geometry as I 
>>>> have of macroeconomics. Which is to say, none. So I'll leave the 
>>>> theorizing 
>>>> to others.
>>>> But I will say (as a few others have opined in other conversations) 
>>>> that I have never been able to get older racing bikes to work well with 
>>>> upright bars. On my mid-eighties Trek for example (73.5 sta and 73 hta), I 
>>>> always felt like all of my weight was resting on my hands. This occurred 
>>>> even with different bars (albatross, jitensha, vo porteur), different stem 
>>>> lengths (everything from 8mm to 12mm), and different bar heights (below, 
>>>> even with, and above the saddle). It turned out the most expensive 200 
>>>> dollar Craigslist bike I've ever come across.
>>>> My SimpleOne on the other hand (72 and 72 if I remember correctly), 
>>>> works beautifully with upright bars. Right now it's sporting VO Porteurs 
>>>> even with the saddle height, so it's not like I even have to be bolt 
>>>> upright to be comfortable. It took a little bit of noodling to get it 
>>>> dialed in, but honestly not a whole lot. I'm even thinking of getting a 
>>>> Hilsen with the same tt length and trying out some drop bars (which have 
>>>> always intimidated my long-legged, short-torsoed self).
>>>> Eric
>>>> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:37:29 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Starting a new thread about a topic that has interested me for a long 
>>>>> time, with a question: do slack angles and therefore (all else equal) 
>>>>> saddles well back of bb, work better with upright positions? Or perhaps, 
>>>>> an 
>>>>> upright position works best with a rearward saddle and thus slack angles?
>>>>> I recall dithering about a nice Dave Moulton, at a very good price, 
>>>>> because of the 74* st angle, and being told that a racing position on a 
>>>>> racing bike means being forward over the crank assembly/bb shell. This 
>>>>> was 
>>>>> confirmed by several experienced ex racers. I finally passed.
>>>>> The classic bolt upright ride seems to be the Raleigh DL-1, perhaps 
>>>>> Dutch city bikes (but I've no experience with them). Such slack angles, 
>>>>> high bb shell, and ends of grips practically bumping your knees. I've 
>>>>> ridden many such bikes and I've watched others ride them, and I know for 
>>>>> a 
>>>>> fact that they very strongly discourage an energetic riding style -- if 
>>>>> you 
>>>>> try to ride hard, you always (and I see others always) reposition the 
>>>>> body 
>>>>> to negate the design -- lean forward, grab bar next to stem, sit on nose 
>>>>> of 
>>>>> saddle).
>>>>> And then there's the gearing: stock on the DL-1 was 46/18 or 72 gi, 
>>>>> iirc. Even if 44/18, that's still 68". Even 68" on a very tall, 50 lb 
>>>>> bike 
>>>>> is damned high.
>>>>> So the design must have been built with a (1) relaxed or energy 
>>>>> conserving and (2) ponderous or high torque/low rpm
>>>>> It's hard to understand why the DL-1 remained in production for so 
>>>>> long; I don't think that this extended product life can't be explained 
>>>>> solely on failing-socialist Indian and Chinese economic practices, or 
>>>>> pure 
>>>>> inertia.
>>>>> So something about this sort of riding position must work, and 
>>>>> therefore one presumes that Raleigh had worked out the riding style, and 
>>>>> then the position, and then the angles and lengths that were most 
>>>>> efficient 
>>>>> with this position.
>>>>> Translate this into the upright Rivendells. These have low bbs, so 
>>>>> that's different; they also come with low gearing -- I get the impression 
>>>>> that these favor spinning, and not mashing?
>>>>> And the Rivs have startlingly long tts -- to countereffect the 
>>>>> rearward sweep of the bar and the slacker heads? So, this would mean a 
>>>>> more 
>>>>> aggressive riding position, and therefore more spirited riding style, 
>>>>> than 
>>>>> what the DL-1 was designed for.
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Eric Karnes <epka...@gmail.com> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> My guess that this is mostly a commentary on the use of fairly steep 
>>>>>> seat tube angles (73–75 degrees) on many road/sport/touring bikes from 
>>>>>> (very roughly) the 80s to present. This can make it very hard for some 
>>>>>> people to get a proper weight distribution without slamming the seat 
>>>>>> back, 
>>>>>> using an ultra-setback seatpost, or a combination of both. I had a 
>>>>>> mid-eighties Trek sport touring bike like this. I loved the way the 
>>>>>> frame 
>>>>>> rode, but the 73.5 degree sta made it impossible for me to get 
>>>>>> comfortable.
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 2:27:41 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> As a follow-up, I saw somewhere Grant writing that people like to 
>>>>>>> slam the seats ALL the way back - is this due to the upright bars / 
>>>>>>> higher 
>>>>>>> than seat bars / upright posture on a bike?
>>>>>> -- 
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>>> -- 
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
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>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>> *************************************
>>> ***************************************************
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *
>>> Aristotle

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