Friday nights should never require this much reading. You had me at "What is... "
You lost me at "Is there more than... " -Scott On May 14, 11:14 pm, happyriding <[email protected]> wrote: > What is loctite? Is there more than one kind? Apparently I NEED it for > my new dirt bike? > > So I just got a cheap chinese dirtbike and was told I need to LOCTITE > everything. If you LOCTITE something does that make it impossible to > undo if you need to? What kind of LOCKTITE would you recomend using on > the bolts of a dirtbike? THANKS!!! > > Best Answer - Chosen by Voters > ---------------------------------------------- > > Has anyone explained WHY you were told that about your new Chinese > bike? > > You can look around and see only Rare mention of "Loctiting > Everything" on the japanese Dirtbikes. > > It's Not because the Chinese Vibrate more than the japanese. > > Loctite does NOT keep Bolts/Nuts Tight. > It merely keeps them from falling off when they come loose,,,and any > parts they're holding coming adrift. > > Fastener Tension is what keeps things tight. > Pretty Much the same as a "Spring Tension" Effect. > > When you Torque a Fastener to correct specs,,, > the shank STRETCHES and holds the tension in a spring-like effect. > > Too Loose,,,and ya dont have enough tension to hold the load. > > Too TIGHT and you've exceeded the Yield Strength of the > Fastener,,,,you've "sprung the spring",,,Over Stretched it. > > Old Saying,,"Over Torqued Bolt is a Half Broken Bolt" > > There's all sorts of GRADES of fasteners. > Higher Grades have both Higher Yield Strength AND typically a "high > modulus of elasticity"---they are SPRINGIER. > > LOW Grade Bolts are Soft,Weak,Spongy,and with Low Yield strength. > > When you Torque them to "Correct Specs",,,they Stretch too. > But when You LOAD them,,,that exceeds their elasticity. > > The Result is that the fastener PERMANENTLY Stretches. > A Bolt becomes actually LONGER. > > A "Longer Bolt" gives exact same effect as a LOOSE BOLT which is not > tightened down all the way. > > Dynamic Loading/Movement,etc will eventually LENGTHEN,,,Not > "loosen",,the fastener to the point where it Becomes Loose. > > Then Vibrations will cause nuts to back off,fall off,,screws & bolts > to vibrate out of their hole and so on. > > Loctite can be BAD NEWS on Low Grade hardware. > > Exagerated example: > Say you have a Bolt that has a 1" Clamped Length when installed and > torqued. > And it Stretches in service to 1 1/8".(Gross exageration) > But OBVIOUSLY it's then Wobbling Loose,,right? > It's no longer even bottomed out on the parts,,not even "touching". > > So what does that Normally Require? > RE-Tightening,obviously. > (In Reality,,it NEEDS a Better Grade Bolt) > So You have a Low Grade Bolt,,,loosened from Over Stretching,,,, > and a SEMI-SEIZED Thread from Loctite. > > The LOCTITE itself introduces a False Torque during Re-Torque > operation. > It RAISES the Break-Out Torque just to MOVE it. > That gets Added to the Total Torque. > > So you either : > a)See 15ft Lbs on your Torque Wrench,,,while Clamping Force is only > equivalent of 10FT lbs. > Because 5ft lbs goes Just to TURN the Fastener > or > b)You Torque the Threads and Shank of the fastener sytem without > applying ANY clamping force > or > c)You try to REMOVE the fastener which has been Over stretched beyond > it's yield strength,,,and the Torque demand of the Loctite allows you > the Break the Fastener becomes it comes loose. > > Now,,,did you see me say ANYWHERE that "Locktite is BAD??" > Or,,,"DO NOT USE Locktite"?? > > No,,it's a fine product and does an incredibly dependable job in it's > intended & appropriate applications. > People bet their Lives on it,,,and the safety/security of Zillion > Dollar Equipment. > > But you have to Focus on the Key Words>>"Intended & Appropriate > Applications" > > There's LOTS more to the matter than knowing what each Color of > Loctite Does. > The explanation of THAT simple aspect is written right on the > product's instructions. > > ......................................… > The Best,,,and generally the ONLY advantage that Loctite can offer any > unit assembled with Low Grade Hardware is to prevent a part from > falling off. > > It will Retain a Loose Bolt or Nut. > > That SOUNDS like,,,"Well thats what it's supposed to do" > And that's correct. > > But ,,THEN What? > > What Loctite DOES NOT DO is prevent parts from coming loose due to > Fastener Stretch/Yield. > > Nothing about Loctite improves the metallurgy of the fasteners > involved. > > It ONLY increases Torque Requirement to prevent vibrations from > spinning a nut off,etc. > > Consider what happens NEXT,,,when you get tired of your exhaust > flopping around,,,Handlebars slipping,,,footpegs wobbling around,,etc. > > And all your "safely Loctited" nuts/bolts are Still Present on the Now > Loose hardware. > > Tighten them Up? > Good Luck. > > It was "half Broken" when originally installed,, > Yielded it's clamp length till it got LOOSE,,, > Now You wanna Torque it AGAIN,,,,but with the addition of the Loctite > Breakout Torque Requirement? > > I'll say it again,,,NOTHING Wrong with Using Locktite. > At least it "FEELS GOOD" that you've done SOMETHING. > > But whoever told you to use Loctite SPEFICALLY BECAUSE > You're bike is CHINESE does NOT Understand the phenomenon of those > machines having Nuts & Bolts which continually come loose and fall > off. > > The "Falling Off" aint the Problem. > That's only the RESULT of the Problem,,which is FAILED Fasteners. > Preventing the things from Falling Off is Not a Bad Thing,, > > But it ONLY is addressing a SYMPTOM of a more serious and potentially > dangerous problem. > > Loctite use has the distinct potential to cause Further Probs when you > try to Tighten stuff. > And most likely will help the fasteners reach Failure sooner. > > Only REAL FIX is to REPLACE the Fasteners with Hi Grade Hardware. > Nuts,Bolts,AND flat washers & lockwashers as well. > Spongy ,Soft-surfaced washers don't help matters. > > I realize that Replacement is Both tedious And an expense. > But it's a Genuine Fix,,,not just Feel-Better-About-It Patch. > > A Rational Approach would be to initially replace Critical App/Safety > Related hardware,,,such as Brake Mounting stuff,,Handlebar Clamp > bolts,etc. > > WAY more of a nuisance to use than Loctite,,,but a Much Better > alternative is to use a couple wraps of Teflon Tape. > > It forms a Pseudo-"Nyloc Nut" by introducing enough Thread > Interference to impede vibration spin-off. > > Teflon Tape also has the xtra benefit which Loctite Doesn't of prevent > Thread Galling,,,,and Torque Binding between the threads. > > Especially on Low Quality Tapped Blind Holes where you DONT wanna > break a bolt off in the hole. > > When Threads engage each other and begin to take a load,,, > The FRICTION between the 2 sets of Threads begin to "bite into each > other". > On Soft,Mis Formed,or otherwise Low Quality Fasteners,,,any Further > Torque simply Twists the fasteners shank. > That Creates a False Torque because Thread Bind Stops the advance of > correct Stretch. > > The Nut quits jacking up the bolt Tighter and Stretching it to correct > tension,,,,Because the Threads Freeze. > So any further Torque just TWIST the Shank,,,NOT the Thread. > A Few Heat Cycles or Load Cycles Relaxes the Thread Friction>>>result > is a Loose Bolt. > > Teflon Tape as a thread Locking Agent prevents Thread Binding to a > high degree,,,and ensures far more accurate actual Torque. > > It's a Tedious Nuisance to use it,,,,even with a BUNCH of practice. > And hardware never gets "handy" and finger-spinnable when > disassembling. > > Anyway..... > Nothing "Wrong" with Loctite. > But it DOES warrant a Bit more thought & consideration of the task at > hand. > One should be fully aware of what they're dealing with,,what they're > trying to accomplish,,,and what the outcome of any effort will be. > As well as being aware of alternatives & their Pros & Cons. > > The Observation of Chinese Machines "needing Loctite" is NOT as > obvious as it seems. > The Problem is Low Grade Fasteners. > Which need occasional tightening. > In light of that condition & its requirement,,,Loctite and it's > properties may not be the ideal choice. > > Doing Something is not necessarily Always better than doing nothing. > Sometimes there can be ,,"Worse than doing nothing". > > Like adding torque demands to already weak fasteners,,,especially when > they're expected to need frequent tightening. > > ......................................… > ****Been there,, Done that,,,exact same situation. > Anybody who worked on japanese bikes in early '60's recalls the > japanese Standard Torque Specs. > > "Tighten it till it gets loose again,,then back off half a turn" > > 6mm bolts got broken off without even realizing they were getting > tight,,,especially if they were old. > > 8mm bolts could be broken off at will. > Or,,the threads pulled outa the nut. > > American 1/4"(6mm equiv) Grade 5 from Cars,Harleys,or Brit Bikes took > a Lot of effort to strip or break. Ya could stretch them till they > were Distinctly narrow in the middle. > > A Grade 8 was extremely difficult to break. > > A Grade 8 3/8" SAE bolt(8mm equiv) would Damage TOOLS before it would > break. > > Finally the japanese upgraded their hardware. > > The Chinese will too eventually. > I have a hunch they're at LEAST as serious about developing their Bike > Industry as the japanese were in 1960. > > The parallel of each country's introduction to American mkt is > remarkable. > The japanese had just about every aspect of their machines Nailed. > Except material quality was marginal in many aspects. > > The Chinese,,in my opinion,,are very much the same right now. > Good designs,lots of features,great prices,styling,everything. > But they're using cheesey quality materials in areas that blight the > whole bike's overall value and appeal. > > In 60's,,,it took a LONG time for People to FINALLY say,,"The japanese > Build GOOD bikes". > > I think the Chinese CAN turn that corner Real Quick with some minimum > & low cost Upgrades. > We'll likely just wake up one day and see "World Class" Chinese Bikes > with quality equal to anyone's. > > If they dont shoot theirself in the foot first,,from crap like > skimping $20 per bike on nuts & bolts. > > That's Critical,,but it's also the kind of nuisance which makes > potential Dealers reluctant to wanna fooll with them. > And for the Chinese to ultimately get solid established,,they GOTTA > build better Dealer /Parts/Service network than they have so far. > > Anyway,,enough babbling outa me. > > Good Luck with it. > ------- > > From:http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070720122316AA3mxRj > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group > athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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