"what I don't want is a bike that feels "heavy" or "sluggish" when being ridden.. I think we all know what that means"
I think this is where I'm the outlier because I *don't* know what that means. Or, to be more specific, what I think that means is something different from what other people mean. The way I always express it is that all my bikes go faster when I pedal harder. I always pedal as hard as I want to go and the bike goes as fast as it does. I do know what it means to ride a crappy bike, but there are crappy 20 pound bikes and great 35 pound bikes. I don't think there is anything objectively connecting bike weight to sluggishness, but A LOT of people do, and it seems you may be one of those normal people. I'm the abnormal one. Maybe what "normal" people mean is that they insist on riding up HILL X at precisely 12 MPH, and a "sluggish" bike requires you to pedal harder to get to objectively 12MPH? Maybe "normal" people are all on club-rides and just want to keep up with the speedy group? I am neither of those people. Being really specific about it, on these group boards, there was a poster who claimed he can tell how full his water bottles are just by how fast his bike goes up a hill. I cannot tell how full my water bottles are by riding my bike up a hill. Two full water bottles is four pounds. I would say the majority of cyclists claim there's a massive difference between a 17 pound bike and a 21 pound bike. I agree there's a difference, but I don't think it's massive. That;s what makes me a weirdo. There are posters here who may refer to a 24 pound road bike as "a tank". I'm not one of them. I hate picking up my 30+ pound bikes, but I don't hate riding them. I'm sure my sub 20 pound bikes go a hair faster, but I still pedal in the gear that I feel like pedaling in. In no circumstances am I under some deadline where I have to average 18.75MPH or I get fired. One other way normal people justify their "need" for a light bike is using language like "it's just more fun to throw the bike around". Even Jan Heine uses language like this. I think I know what "throwing the bike around" is, and I agree that if doing that was something I did a lot, I guess I'd develop more of a taste for very very light bikes, but the fact is that I don't "throw the bike around" all that much. I love doing weight weenie builds, but the evaluation of the lightness happens on the scale, not on the road. It's fun to shave a pound of unnecessary weight off a build, full stop. I can't feel the difference. Others claim they can, and I can't prove them wrong. Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 9:28:25 AM UTC-8 four...@gmail.com wrote: > fair enough, I can see why you got that from what I had put in my initial > inquiry.. > > I'm certainly NOT looking for a race bike, I already have a couple of > those kind of bikes, if that is what I'm looking for.. what I don't want is > a bike that feels "heavy" or "sluggish" when being ridden.. I think we all > know what that means.. of course, much of that can often be attributed to > heavy wheels/tires, but a 35# bike HAS to feel heavier than 21# bike to > ride, either accelerating from a stop or on a 5% extended climb.. (using > these weight numbers just to illustrate a point) > > But back to my search for info- yes I like Rivs, every since around 2008.. > yes, I want a bike that will take a larger tire.. and yes, I would like the > bike to not feel like a pig when I ride it. I generally like to have my > bars at or even a bit above my saddle, so a Riv certainly ticks that box > normally. > > Appreciate it! > Chris > > On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 9:14:23 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: > >> fourflys wanted feedback on maybe buying a Leo. >> >> My general impression of your search for info is that you want it to be a >> racing bike that takes wide tires. That's not what the Leo Roadini is, in >> my opinion. The Leo Roadini is an evolved road bike. It seemed to me you >> want a traditional or mainstream road bike, just one that takes wide tires >> and maybe says Rivendell on it. In other words, you want a Roadeo, which >> is a lot more of a traditional or mainstream road racing bike that takes >> wide-ish tires. >> >> A big part of my "presence" on this board is to counterpoint the >> contrarians. >> >> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 8:27:44 AM UTC-8 four...@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> edit to my above reply- just read through Bill's post when he initially >>> built up Leo.. good stuff and good comparisons.. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 8:10:08 AM UTC-8 Chris Fly wrote: >>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> Good Stuff! I had pretty much written a Leo off as I really couldn't >>>> find much feedback on it to be honest.. I got a few replies to my >>>> question, >>>> but not a lot.. your report has it back on my radar! >>>> >>>> Having been a big supporter of the Black Mountain Cycles brand and >>>> having had a V1 Road and MC, I'd be curious how you would compare the BMC >>>> Road and your Leo (in drop bar mode)? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 7:18:17 PM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>> >>>>> I posted a photo of the drop bar build that I had on that bike in >>>>> 2018. This thread links to that thread, and in that thread I posted a >>>>> photo. You should be able to find it. It doesn't look like I made a >>>>> Flickr >>>>> album for that build so the detailed build photos are buried. >>>>> >>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 3:06:34 PM UTC-8 brenton...@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Got a pic of your setup? I'm building a roadini at the moment and >>>>>> love seeing others' builds. Would love to see it in it's brevet mode if >>>>>> it >>>>>> has multiple modes. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 7:32:05 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yesterday was the Del Puerto Canyon 200k brevet, hosted by San >>>>>>> Francisco Randonneurs. Luckily for me the day remained conflict-free >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> was able to do it. It was the 26th RUSA event of my career of 200k or >>>>>>> greater, and I logged my best time ever: 8 hours 18 minutes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I woke up a little earlier than I needed to, at 4:45AM. I was able >>>>>>> to pack light because of the amazing weather forecast. The Del Puerto >>>>>>> Canyon 200k starts and finishes in Pleasanton, CA, just south of Mount >>>>>>> Diablo. The ride goes out and over the hills that make up the Altamont >>>>>>> Pass,meanders through the flat farm roads around Tracy and Wesley, and >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> returns out and over the same hills via Del Puerto Canyon. The >>>>>>> forecast >>>>>>> called for temps in the low 50s to start and venturing into the high >>>>>>> 70s in >>>>>>> some places. So I wore bib-shorts, a light base layer, short sleeve >>>>>>> jersey, arm warmers and a reflective vest. The ride started at 8AM, >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> would be light enough to not require any lighting. Sunset would come >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> about 6PM, so I did bring lights just in case I went over 10 hours. I >>>>>>> carried a little Cygolite Dart (from Riv), a battery taillight, and two >>>>>>> elastic head lamps that could serve as backup head or tail lights. I >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> carried a USB battery stick in case I needed to boost my phone, Wahoo, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> headlight. In my Ruthworks rackless Brevet bag went those lighting >>>>>>> bits, a >>>>>>> few bars, and a travel size sunscreen for when the armwarmers came off >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the guns came out. I made coffee and breakfast, got lubed up and >>>>>>> dressed >>>>>>> and I was a good 25 minutes ahead of schedule. I had planned to catch >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> 6:20AM Bart train, and it's a 5-minute bomb down the hill to get to the >>>>>>> Bart station. I went ahead and decided to grab the 6:00AM train >>>>>>> instead >>>>>>> and left early, and still had to wait on the platform for several >>>>>>> minutes. >>>>>>> The Fremont Train takes me down past Oakland to the transfer station at >>>>>>> Bay >>>>>>> Fair, where I transfer to a Pleasanton train to head over the hills in >>>>>>> Castro Valley out to the start. There was a delay due to track repair, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> a chilly wait for my Pleasanton train, but I was still at the start >>>>>>> with my >>>>>>> card in plenty of time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The turnout for this event was huge; the biggest ever for this event >>>>>>> which was first run in 2011. ~150 randos had signed up, partially >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> of the great weather forecast, partially because there is always an >>>>>>> uptick >>>>>>> in participation the year before a PBP year, and partially because this >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> SFRs flattest 200k, with "only" 5300 ft of climbing. It was a huge >>>>>>> bunch >>>>>>> that started off. I didn't want to get sucked up with any of the 'too >>>>>>> fast' >>>>>>> groups, so I looked for familiar SFR riders who I knew were in my >>>>>>> time-zone >>>>>>> and hung with them for the first ~15 miles through the urban streets of >>>>>>> Pleasanton and Livermore before the first climb began. That first climb >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> around 1200ft, with a gradually increasing grade all along its length, >>>>>>> topping off at around 10% at the peak. This did a good job of >>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>> out the riders, and there was essentially no traffic so it was a great >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> to move up. I was feeling good, so I left the familiar group behind and >>>>>>> passed a lot of slower riders. I was aiming for a decent time, and one >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> to make a good time is to not waste a lot of time at controls. The >>>>>>> first >>>>>>> control threatened to be a time sink if you arrive within a few minutes >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> a lot of other riders, because there would be only one volunteer to >>>>>>> stamp >>>>>>> your card, while a second volunteer checks your name on the roster. I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> motivated to move up if I could, and I found a great rhythm on Leo. >>>>>>> Checking my Strava, the majority of the climb is captured in the "Tesla >>>>>>> Topper" segment. That 8.24 mile segment climbs 981ft, and I averaged >>>>>>> 13.3mph for that segment. If I could average >20kph on one of the few >>>>>>> climbs, a sub-10-hour ride and finishing before dark was looking good. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I found a partner to paceline with on the fast descent, who noted >>>>>>> "we should get the miles in NOW, while we have a tailwind". The descent >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the flat farm roads on the valley floor felt like cheating, we were >>>>>>> moving >>>>>>> really fast. I found another group of strong riders to work with on the >>>>>>> farm roads, which were thankfully quite smooth and almost car-free. I >>>>>>> noticed another rider up the road a bit, so I pushed harder to bridge >>>>>>> up to >>>>>>> him, and looked back to find that I'd left that group of ~6 behind. I >>>>>>> stayed with this faster rider until we hit the first control at mile 44 >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> 10:30AM. That control was filled with roadie types, who I assumed were >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> tail-end of the 'fast' group on our ride. I got my card stamped, >>>>>>> cut/augmented my home-made gatorade with a bottle of water, and got >>>>>>> right >>>>>>> back on the road with a roadie group. Turns out, they were on a >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> ride and I followed them in the wrong direction. I only lost a couple >>>>>>> minutes on my detour, and quickly got back on the right course. It was >>>>>>> another 15 miles to an open control in a small town at the beginning of >>>>>>> Del >>>>>>> Puerto Canyon road. I got more drinks, this time my Tour de France >>>>>>> formula >>>>>>> of Coke mixed with OJ, and cut with water. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Del Puerto Canyon Road is one of the longest continuous climbs I >>>>>>> know of in the Bay Area. For roughly 25 miles, you are going up-hill, >>>>>>> gradually, almost without letup. It's only 2200 feet, but it is >>>>>>> definitely >>>>>>> relentless. This day was somewhat harder because the winds were strong, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> in some stretches it was a fierce headwind, in others a strong >>>>>>> crosswind, >>>>>>> and in others you were protected by the canyon and kind of baking. >>>>>>> Again, >>>>>>> it was beneficial to find a rhythm and stay on it. I was able to do >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> well on Leo. I was largely solo, passing a few riders along the way. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> last stretch of Del Puerto Canyon is quite steep, 12-15%, and on that >>>>>>> final >>>>>>> grind I caught Rob Hawks, our RBA just as we were reaching the final >>>>>>> intermediate control at mile 85, The Junction Cafe. The 'fast group' >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> left by then, and this wave included more randos who would treat >>>>>>> themselves >>>>>>> to a beer and/or a burger. Rob Hawks got himself an IPA, but I was >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> holding out hope for my first ever 8-hour (wall-clock) time, so I did >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> tarry long. After getting my card stamped, I grabbed a purple Gatorade >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> a water, ate a Clif bar and headed back out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After The Junction there are two smallish but mean little climbs >>>>>>> before the LONG Mines Road descent. For roughly 25 miles continuously >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> are riding down hill. Very gradually down hill, but downhill all the >>>>>>> time. >>>>>>> This was kind of frustrating because the headwind that had pushed me >>>>>>> south >>>>>>> earlier in the day was stopping me from really getting going now that I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> heading north. I would have needed to average ~22mph to get to the >>>>>>> finish >>>>>>> in under 8 hours, and the wind was clearly going to make that >>>>>>> impossible >>>>>>> for me, despite the grade. The one steep downhill on Mines Road is >>>>>>> quite >>>>>>> twisty and I really opened Leo up on that stretch. It's a really fun >>>>>>> bike >>>>>>> on twisty descents. It's got long chainstays and a long front center, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> it really rails stable and fast around sweeping turns. It's not a >>>>>>> nervous, >>>>>>> twitchy 'race bike'. It's a fast cruising road bike. It's not >>>>>>> sprightly, >>>>>>> it's swift. I noticed the difference between an evolved road bike and a >>>>>>> traditional 'race bike' in the final 10 miles or so back in town. The >>>>>>> stops >>>>>>> and starts at all the traffic signals might have been more fun with a >>>>>>> bike >>>>>>> that was 'quicker off the line', but at mile 115, I was feeling I had >>>>>>> made >>>>>>> a good choice with a machine that had put me in a position to work in >>>>>>> comfort. I was partially resigned to miss my stretch goal of >>>>>>> sub-8-hours, >>>>>>> and sort of cruised in to the finish at a moderate effort. The traffic >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> insane anyway, so getting in safe was a higher priority than shaving >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> last couple of minutes. I pulled into the finish-Starbucks at 4:18 and >>>>>>> turned in my card. The first finisher, Brian, had set a course record >>>>>>> exactly one hour faster than me, at 7:18, and he was still there, >>>>>>> waiting >>>>>>> for a few of his friends. I hung out for a short while chatting with >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> fellow randos and then rode back to BART for the return trip home. >>>>>>> Strava >>>>>>> gave me credit for 126.5 miles, 5144ft of climbing and 7:45 moving time >>>>>>> (16.3mph average). That's a splendid day on the bike for me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, while lots of vocal people very sincerely and very stridently >>>>>>> indicate that they strongly prefer, or even require the very thinnest >>>>>>> lightest tubing in order to enjoy a bicycle, I can definitely say that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> fit, handling and build are far higher priorities to me. I love a bike >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> is light, don't get me wrong. If there was a 'gravity knob' on my bike, >>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>> turn it down. If I could wave a magic wand and make my Leo Roadini 17 >>>>>>> pounds instead of 22, I would. That said, if I swapped out my $900 Leo >>>>>>> Roadini frameset for a $2600 Roadeo frameset, I would get some things. >>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>> get about a pound lighter bike, that has more pretty lugs. I'd get >>>>>>> thinner >>>>>>> tubing, but I still have no idea what thinner tubing would give me in >>>>>>> any >>>>>>> objective sense. How many minutes faster would I have been off my >>>>>>> personal >>>>>>> best? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? I would not have been an hour faster and >>>>>>> hung >>>>>>> with Brian, that's for sure. There's no chance I would have been >>>>>>> fresher, >>>>>>> or happier or safer. It may have been infinitesimally 'better', and >>>>>>> almost >>>>>>> certainly would have been no worse, but there was no characteristic of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Leo Roadini that got in my way or prevented me from having a great day >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the bike. There is a HUGE swath of road bike owners that I see on my >>>>>>> rides, >>>>>>> many of them as I passed them yesterday, that look like they could be >>>>>>> having a much more pleasant time on a bike like the Leo Roadini, and a >>>>>>> lot >>>>>>> less like the 'racer-wanna-be' machines they were on. Many of those >>>>>>> riders >>>>>>> can't even reach the drops or the hooks, and spend all day on the hoods >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> the tops. Shouldn't that tell them something? I feel like it could tell >>>>>>> them they are on a racing bike and they aren't racers. I'm the last >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> who would ever tell somebody that they shouldn't like the bike they are >>>>>>> on, >>>>>>> but at the same time, whenever I hear somebody diss the Roadini, what I >>>>>>> hear is "I don't want a fast, stable, comfortable road bike for long >>>>>>> athletic road rides. I want a bike that looks more like a racing bike". >>>>>>> That's totally cool if that's what you want. I know I could have done >>>>>>> yesterdays brevet on a Roadeo or a Roadini, and I think I would have >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> the same day on either one. If a Roadeo frame is 1 pound lighter, then >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> estimate I would have been a few whole minutes faster. If I had not >>>>>>> carried any of the lighting that I didn't need, I could have been >>>>>>> another >>>>>>> few whole minutes faster. Maybe I could have made my 8-hour goal, had I >>>>>>> shaved every extraneous ounce. Those ounces and those minutes would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> not changed the fact that I had another great day on the bike. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4502fbf7-d8ef-42e2-80ea-866ddf033f6cn%40googlegroups.com.
