Bill,
I appreciate your online persona and believe (perhaps naively) that I discern an almost Socratic intent behind some of your more pointed commentary. We’re all works in progress of course, but for what it’s worth I wouldn’t put too much effort into accommodating the sensibilities of internet randos. (As an internet rando myself I recognize the contradiction inherent in that statement, but I’ll follow my own advice and not worry about it.)
Torn on whether it’d be preferable to send this to you privately, but I figure a public callout merits a public response.
Jay Lonner Bellingham, WA
Sent from my Atari 400 Michael
That's perfectly fair and I'll own it. Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Last week I met a lister down at Fieldwork Brewery in Berkeley to sell them a part, and over a couple pints this lister and I had a long discussion of this and that. One of the topics was me being a dick on lists. It's kind of complicated. I will say you aren't wrong, and I'm not particularly proud of it. I work on it and I think I'm reasonably nice in person.
tl/dr but back on-topic of water bottles
My multiple choice about the seat tube use case was sincere, and at least one responder here said they are indeed "choice A" and only run the seat tube bottle, which is fascinating to me.
Stepping back, I applaud anybody dwelling on a small bike detail and asking "why do they do this little thing this way?" When I posted my smart aleck multiple choice I assumed (without knowing for sure) that maybe half the bikes in my garage would have this low-slung straddling seat tube bottle placement. In between smart aleck posts I went and did an inventory in my garage. There are 8 single bikes that have both a front derailer and seat tube bottle bolts. Only ONE of the 8 have the bolts straddling the FD, and that's my RoadUno, which I found pretty funny to me for a few reasons. I used a King Cage, and so it didn't interfere with the FD and didn't require washers. The other 7 have them up high, and I contemplated for a while...and I agree with you: up high looks better. I admit that I don't have a clue why Grant (or Will) spec'd them low on the RoadUno. It's a funny looking machine for a ton of reasons, so the funny looking bottle placement is lost in the noise of being funny looking. Regardless, this topic showed me I don't know anything about bottle placement in frame design and the world would have continued on its axis had I not responded at all on this thread and just read posts and tried to learn something for a change. If I had a Time Machine, I'd go back and do that.
Bill
On Saturday, September 21, 2024 at 6:39:51 PM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
Bill - your stable of bikes, Rivendell or otherwise is pretty enviable. Your personality, (the internet one, at least) less so.
On Saturday, September 21, 2024 at 1:32:57 PM UTC-4 Bill Lindsay wrote:
That does reduce my confusion. I was focused on your suspicion that down-low was so obviously a design flaw, and failed to absorb your certainty that your suspicion was wrong.
Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA
On Saturday, September 21, 2024 at 10:11:38 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
Hey Bill -
If you read my original post I make it clear that despite my understanding of the situation i concede that am most likely wrong, but my question had nothing to do with the bottle being more 'easily accessible', just about its positioning aesthetically and perhaps even functionally, as if it straddles the FD clamp it requires one more thing to mount (washers to raise ) So it's kind of an inaccurate recounting to say that 'The OP believes there is an obvious design flaw'
Perhaps you're conflating lower on the frame with 'more easily accessible' and i'm not CERTAIN that's the case. surely too close to the top tube and the bottle would be impossible to get, but there's a middle ground between as low as possible and the aforementioned 'too close to the seat tube'. To ME, that middle ground seems like it'd be easier to access, as it's closer to ones reach than lower would be.
A lot of the accounts from bike owners and bike viewers seem to suggest similar confusion about why sometimes it's above the clamp area, sometimes it's below. your own account suggests that it might as well be ABOVE the derailleur clamp area, as it isn't a drinking water position, it's a stored water position. Therefore, more easily accessible (which i conflate with being closer to ones reach)
i prefer the suggestions that weight lower on the frame is ideal (not actually sure if its true but it seems to make physical sense) and also the allowance for frame bags (in this day and age especially, less so when the hillborne that i'm referencing was originally created) AND the idea that your legs thin out the closer they get to the ankle.
I hope that helps with some of your confusion.
On Saturday, September 21, 2024 at 12:00:38 PM UTC-4 Bill Lindsay wrote:
The OP believes there is an obvious design flaw that the seat tube water bottle isn't more easily accessible on lots of bikes.
This confuses me. To those who need/want a higher mounted seat tube water bottle on their bikes: what exactly is the use case?
a. I run ONLY a seat tube water bottle for some really good reason, and I therefor it should be super accessible, because it's my only source of ride-hydration b. I run two different drinks and have to have easy access at BOTH to manage my hydration strategy c. I always drink from the seat tube bottle FIRST for some really good reason, and use the down tube bottle as the back up, so the seat tube bottle needs to be super accessible d. some other use case
For me, and I assumed for most other cyclists, the seat tube bottle is not for drinking. The down tube bottle is for drinking. When the down tube bottle is empty, then I move the seat tube bottle to the down tube, and THEN that bottle is for drinking. In other words, it's a STORAGE location, not an ACCESSIBILITY location, for my use-case. When I grab for a bottle, 19 out of 20 times it's the down tube bottle. I only grab the seat tube bottle when it's time to swap. For storage, I prefer efficiency, and down the seat tube gets it out of the way and that makes sense to me.
Bill Lindsay On Friday, September 20, 2024 at 7:00:58 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
i'm ready for the answer to be so obvious that I assume this is a dumb question.
So often, on many bike frame, but also on Riv's - the bottle bosses on the seat tube straddle where the derailleur clamp would go.
however, almost AS often as I see this, I also see plenty of real estate for them to exist ABOVE said clamp area, where they'd no doubt be more easily accessed by a rider.
why? it seems so obviously a design flaw, but surely I'M the one in the wrong.
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