Aha, clearly my sleuthing wasn't enough! You're right. Nevertheless I think your point is spot on about the Charlie and Appaloosa being similar geometrically. If only I could ride both...
On Wednesday, 5 November 2025 at 15:31:48 UTC+10:30 Mike in BK wrote: > Hi Dan! Thanks for checking it out. That is a 70 degree HT Appaloosa in > Sergio Green with the second set of hour glass rack mounts on the fork and > the DT bosses. The angles don't match up because the pictures are probably > from different points of view. I mashed a couple of pictures found online > to see if the step over Charlie offered a noticeable amount clearance for > when one falls on to the top tube. A very unscientific methodology, lol! > > On Tuesday, November 4, 2025 at 3:52:25 PM UTC-5 Dan wrote: > >> Great comparison! >> For what it’s worth I think you have there a pre-2024 Appaloosa with its >> 72-degree head tube angle. The difference in front wheel offset to the >> Charlie (with its slacker head tube angle) is noticeable. >> >> And yes, with its 50mm tyre clearance I can’t help but feel that the >> Hillborne is now similar on paper to the earlier Atlanti and hence worth >> looking at for people pining over those frames! >> >> On Tuesday, 4 November 2025 at 12:36:52 UTC+10:30 Mike in BK wrote: >> >>> Very helpful, Al. Thanks! If you look on Bike Insights and compare the >>> 2017 (May) geometry of the first Atlantis MIT frames it's amazing how the >>> 61cm Atlantis is so close to the current 57cm Hillborne geometry, just with >>> more slope to the top tube for the Hillborne. The Hillborne definitely is >>> an all-rounder and the Atlantis and Appaloosa moved toward heavy hauling or >>> fat tire trail bike. The Appaloosa has lingered in my mind for so long >>> because I was intrigued when Grant made the Charlie Gallop. On paper that >>> looks like an Atlantis or Appaloosa, including a 70 degree head tube and >>> extremely long chainstays, yet it's a lighter weight, lighter duty, road >>> bike. It's so damn funky I can't imagine shelling out $1750 without having >>> ridden one, and it isn't for trails. I just figured that this must be a >>> geometry Grant thinks is the path forward for us who have decided to commit >>> to sweptback bars. Check this Charlie - Joe composite below (sorry, I meant >>> to line up the bottom brackets, but you see the similarities). >>> [image: bikes-mm.jpg] >>> >>> On Monday, November 3, 2025 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-5 Al wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> >>>> I've owned both. I currently own an Appaloosa (2023 production run), I >>>> sold my Hillborne (2017) to make the switch. There is more of a >>>> Cadillac-esque ride to the Appaloosa. The first time I rode it my >>>> brother-in-law and I took it out and kept commenting on how we'd never >>>> ridden a bike that felt so smooth and stable. The longer chain stays and >>>> geometry do give it that unique riding experience that so many people talk >>>> about. >>>> >>>> I made the switch for a variety of reasons (fit bigger tires, longer >>>> wheelbase ride, be able to carry more weight comfortably). All that being >>>> said, there are things I miss about the Sam and I think it might make more >>>> sense for the riding you're describing. The Sam is lighter and accelerates >>>> faster, it's also more responsive and 'springy'. For context, I used the >>>> Sam as a daily commuter in Seattle, grocery hauler, light trail shredder, >>>> and loaded multi-day tourer/bikecamper. It held up to all of those uses >>>> very well. The Sam is a very fun bike and I think it's as close to an all >>>> around bike as Rivendell makes. >>>> >>>> Hopefully I didn't make you more confused. Like others have said they >>>> are both great bikes. >>>> >>>> Al >>>> Grand Rapids >>>> >>>> On Monday, November 3, 2025 at 3:44:33 PM UTC-5 Mike in BK wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks all. Just the kind of insight I needed. Not having the >>>>> opportunity to test either out makes it tough to decide. >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, November 1, 2025 at 6:19:46 PM UTC-4 [email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> I had the same thoughts as you on the Appaloosa. I started with a >>>>>> Sam before they were cantilever braked. At the time, I was able to test >>>>>> ride both the Sam and the Joe since I'm local to East Bay. They were >>>>>> similar, but the Sam definitely felt more road like and more responsive >>>>>> in >>>>>> that way. Being more of a road rider then, I decided to get the Sam. >>>>>> It >>>>>> was a great bike but then my riding changed and I wanted something that >>>>>> could handle more rough trails and heavier touring but still feel good >>>>>> on >>>>>> the road. So I went back to the Joe and I couldn't be happier. I'm >>>>>> doing >>>>>> equal parts road, dirt, and touring and it's the perfect bike for all >>>>>> that. >>>>>> I do think it's the closest to the bike for everything if you're >>>>>> willing >>>>>> to compromise some on the outside edges of the spectrum. For example, >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> feels great on the road if I use drop bars and stay on flat or light >>>>>> hills >>>>>> and descending. It's not a great climbing bike though. On the other >>>>>> end, >>>>>> it's good on most trails except for super technical, downhill type stuff >>>>>> which is fine for me because I have no business on those trails. And >>>>>> touring it is a dream, no complaints. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I'd suggest you just really look carefully at the type of riding >>>>>> you'll do and then make the decision based on that. They are both great >>>>>> bikes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ryan, super happy Appaloosa rider >>>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, November 1, 2025 at 6:54:14 AM UTC-7 Mike in BK wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Excellent insight. Would be great to see a pic of the Sam. Maybe the >>>>>>> Appaloosa will be your go-to and you can sell it to me, lol! Half >>>>>>> kidding, >>>>>>> but always like to see a well loved Sam if you have pics to post. >>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 10:56:29 AM UTC-4 >>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FWIW, I'm in a similar position and own a Sam and it's an amazing >>>>>>>> bike: I live in Chicago, most of my miles are commuting, limestone >>>>>>>> paths, >>>>>>>> streets and roads. I have a Hillborne and it is dreamy for all that, >>>>>>>> plus >>>>>>>> loaded rides on paved/good condition gravel roads. I'd describe the >>>>>>>> ride as >>>>>>>> super comfortable, stable, agile, responsive but not at all twitchy. >>>>>>>> From >>>>>>>> what you describe you do and aspire to do, it seems pretty ideal. It's >>>>>>>> really a wonderful bike that's so versatile. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Having converted a vintage Rockhopper to be rivish in the past, >>>>>>>> there is just no comparison to the Sam. The Sam is so much livelier, >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> comfortable, beautiful, stable, and fun. That Rockhopper was a lot of >>>>>>>> fun >>>>>>>> and inexpensive, but to me, they are totally different rides. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Re chainstays: They're long by standards of most contemporary >>>>>>>> bikes, just not quite as long as an Atlantis or some other Rivs. Some >>>>>>>> folks >>>>>>>> on the list find that relative shortness to be an advantage, as it >>>>>>>> makes >>>>>>>> the bike more maneuverable both on an off trail. If you find yourself >>>>>>>> lifting your bike up stairs, onto trains, into elevators, you might >>>>>>>> appreciate the shorter wheelbase, too. I know I've been in some >>>>>>>> situations >>>>>>>> where I thought: good gravy this is a big bike (57 Sam from 2021); >>>>>>>> thank >>>>>>>> goodness I don't have one of the longer models! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All that said, I'm lusty for an Appaloosa, because I'm planning on >>>>>>>> some long distance dirt touring where I want big chunky tires, and a >>>>>>>> different setup than my Sam. But if that wasn't in the works, I >>>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>>> feel the need for any other bike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5 Mike in BK wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi gang. I'm itching for my first Riv and decision time is upon >>>>>>>>> me. In Brooklyn I'm rather relegated to paved rides, usually laps in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> park. I was never fast, but now I'm rather slow. I don't have a >>>>>>>>> computer on >>>>>>>>> my bike and can't remember the last time I did. I'm tired of clipless >>>>>>>>> pedals and lycra shorts. I want to indulge in "the art of taking it >>>>>>>>> slow" >>>>>>>>> and have a bike that expands on that magic sensation I feel when I >>>>>>>>> ride my >>>>>>>>> 1981 Trek 710 with 531 tubing and longer chainstays. Bigger tires for >>>>>>>>> starters and Grant's progressive designs. I built a '93 Rockhopper >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Toscos, a B17, and 2.2 tires for riding upstate and it's fun! That >>>>>>>>> frame's >>>>>>>>> position doesn't really work for longer rides and getting distance >>>>>>>>> covered >>>>>>>>> at a reasonable rate. I had the idea that I would go down to just one >>>>>>>>> bike >>>>>>>>> and pick my perfect do-it-all Riv. I don't think that's very >>>>>>>>> realistic, so >>>>>>>>> maybe the Trek will always have a use for strictly road rides. That >>>>>>>>> leaves >>>>>>>>> commuting, leisurely rides, and some gravel and trail riding when I >>>>>>>>> can get >>>>>>>>> to it. Hillborne you say? Not a bad idea, but I don't hear the same >>>>>>>>> glowing >>>>>>>>> reviews of "Cadillac" type ride, and supreme comfort like I do when >>>>>>>>> folks >>>>>>>>> write about Appaloosas, Platypi, and Charlie Gallops. Slack headtube; >>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>> chainstays; I'm buying in. The geo for the 61cm Charlie resembles the >>>>>>>>> 57cm >>>>>>>>> Appaloosa more than anything else. (I noticed the headtube of the Joe >>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>> from 72 degrees to 70 degrees not too long ago, maybe that started >>>>>>>>> with the >>>>>>>>> Sergio green run). I don't think the Charlie would be ideal for >>>>>>>>> trails >>>>>>>>> under my 200 lbs, so I'm getting interested in the Joe. Antonio at >>>>>>>>> RBW >>>>>>>>> advised me that the Joe might be too long and heavy for my needs and >>>>>>>>> recommended the Sam. I'm not sure if I'm jazzed about the Sam the >>>>>>>>> same way, >>>>>>>>> and no less important for such an investment, the lime olive Joe >>>>>>>>> coming up >>>>>>>>> is a way preferable color to the offerings of the Hillbornes >>>>>>>>> pre-selling >>>>>>>>> next week. I'd buy a used olive Hillborne (57cm) but no one ever >>>>>>>>> sells >>>>>>>>> their Riv! Any feedback from folks riding recent issue Appaloosas and >>>>>>>>> Hillbornes would be very welcome. Thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/f84e9aca-95bd-45e8-b45a-f4a6310fc0ebn%40googlegroups.com.
