Darryl,
Thank you for the detailed reply. Keep up the great work!
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Thayer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "RE-wrenches" <[email protected]>
Cc: "dt renewables" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
hi ALL
I am the NABCEP certified installer that teaches the course. So I am the
horses mouth. If you knew the whole story it might look different.
Further we have no sweetheart deal with NABCEP, and are encouraging them
to increase their standards. Following is part of the story.
To complete this course the following:
1) the student must be a practicing electrician, for at least 4 years.
holding a Minnesota journeyman’s license and have a current OSHA 10 hour
stamp.
(Note: NABCEP requested up to five times that the Employment records be
sent, and they would not accept a letter from the Union on letter head if
it was faxed or e-mailed, on just sent on photocopied letter head without
a proof of validity of the records, this minutia alone cost me a great
amount of money and many hours.
2) The student must complete 56 hours of classroom training. the school
requires attendance, and missing a day of class or even 2 hours will
require the retaking of the particular course. (for this reason the 56
hour class is broken into 3 each 16 hour classes and one 8 hour class, and
if a student misses a single class he/she must only repeat a 16 hour
session) These people are workers with lives, and this is my attempt to
make this work course more palatable.
3) The school also requires the student to complete written tests during
the sessions, to prove competency, and as an instructor I can require a
student retake a 16 hour session before they move to the next session. All
sessions must be taken in order, for example a student must take and
complete solar basics before taking solar intermediate. \
3a) The book which we use is the ATP “Solar Systems” (ATP Press) 435 pages
and I work to cover most of these pages in only 56 hours. Some of the
materials are not appropriate for installer’s, however the balance of the
book is covered in "solar for contractors"
4) After completion of these 56 hours, they are encouraged to take the
NABCEP Certificate of Knowledge test. (However because it costs 70$ and
NABCEP does not require this cert for qualifying for the installer test
many do not take the test. (I think NABCEP should require training and
COK. I also think 40 hours of training for cert test is ridiculous.)
5) Then after satisfactory completion the student is allowed to take the
64 hour installers course. I will not, nor will the school, accept anyone
who has not at least 4 years experience as electrician, have OSHA stamp,
completed the 56 hour COK course, to take the installer course!.
6) the 64 Hour installers course is a minimum of 64 hours (school based
installations). (BTW: My two installers classes both ran 80 hours, with
some students carrying over to complete their installs) During this
class we indeed disassemble and reassemble a ground mount array, with each
student completing a section of the array for their inverter and system
based experience. EACH student must complete the following!!!
6a) Install one single phase DGI inverter complete witn setting into
operation, and trouble shooting and inspection. (for trouble shooting I
introduce a fault, usually a ground fault in the array but other faults
are possible , the student must tell me where in the array the fault is by
testing.)
6b) Install one three phase inverter (commercial) array. The student
chooses either a 120-208 three phase, or 208 three phase, or 277-480
three-phase, or a battery based (only choice is 120/208) system. They
wire and connect the inverters, or inverter, and set into operation, and
trouble shoot problems that I introduce. These faults include offset
neutral voltage, out of specification phase voltage, array grounding, high
resistance in the line connections and others.
6c) Then the students working in teams of two must install a battery
based system it might be a stand-alone, or grid interactive. (We have
only three brands of battery based inverters at present, some 24 and 48
volt.) If the student team choses to install a battery based standalone
system they must demonstrate auto gen start. I also introduce faults
into these systems which the student must diagnose.
6d) The students then as team of 4 build class projects, these are
usually hybrid system, or micro-grid (ac coupled inverters), or other
unusual systems.
6e) Each student experiences installation hardware of top of pole mount
and roof mount, and we are building as part of the small wind training
facility additional solar installation space.
7) only after completing this 64 hour course are they allowed to
participate in the final phase. This phase is in two parts, one,
assist in an install lead by others, and two, lead in the install of a 1
kW or larger inverter based system. For the leader of the install, I
make the contact with the customer, I do not sell the final design. The
student, with me close by, but not always present works with the customer
to design and describe the installation. The customers for the last round
was high schools working on a state/utility grant of 5000 dollars for a 1
kW system, or homeowners with their budget. Some of the schools had
additional budget, some did not. The completed student design is then
submitted for my approval, and permitting where required is arranged. The
lead student with the help of additional student performs the install,
under my observation. The student does this under the warrantee of the
contractor of record. Who insists
that I make finial approval of the installation. Then the student faces
the utility inspector, the electrical inspector, and the building
inspector.
Why is this approach necessary? In Minnesota up to July there are only,
185 installations in the last 4 years, the average install is just under
3kW. My students install in about 30 hrs/ kW on 1kW systems and faster
on the larger couple of systems. If 600 kW were installed, this would be
a max of 18,000 man-hours, to install the whole state 4 year solar
base!!! At 2000 man-hours/ year, 9 people! could install the entire state
4 year solar electric base in one year. We are seeing an exponential
growth in solar, and expect an explosion of solar installations, DO YOU
WANT THESE DONE BY FIRST TIMERS? Many of the states installers are being
done this way. I have been called to repair such systems.
It is indeed tough to get ahead of the solar game, NABCEP is hopefully
providing standards and the local Union is trying to exceed. The local
industry can not grow to meet the demand unless planning an participation
and training is followed. The local union membership voted to add to
their dues enough monies to build the solar training lab. This was
$200,000 dollars. Further some solar companies Xantrex, PVPowered,
Outback, Silent Power, SMA, Fronius, Apollo, Morningstar, Surrette
Battery, Sharp, and MIdnight solar have gifted the lab with additional
equipment.
I and the local union have supported NABCEP as a requirement for state
refund, at many levels, I and the local Union hope this support will
result in quality standards. There is no attempt on my part to circumvent
the NABCEP standards, only to enhance the quality of solar installations.
BTW Most but not all of the students start the sequence in the fall and
complete in the spring. They have completed typically 180 hours of
guided, intense work to get ready for certification. How does this
compare with Someone who swept the floor or installed hot tubs or solar
water heaters, or built decks or just wired houses, and then was involved
in two solar installs and is now qualified to test. It is very apparent
the variety of experience starting in a classroom to a lab to the field
has deck building or house wiring beat hands down. (There is no solar
installer in the state that is anywhere near pure PV, and further some are
doing their first two and only two installs to qualify.
To imply that NABCEP has given us special treatment is pure Baloney.. If
you want your ears red you should be part of my (pleading?) with NABCEP
for the equivalence of training on 4 systems to equal one field install.
Darryl
work.
--- On Fri, 9/5/08, Tump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Tump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP succumbs to IBEW pressure?
To: "RE-wrenches" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:20 PM
Good day fellow NABCEP installers. My brother in law ,who is
a member of
IBEW, was visiting from Minnesota, needless to say we have
some interesting
discussions, this one for example.
He said that he was taking a course, taught by a NABCEP
certified
installer, "to get the guys certified". We talked
about the course & I
asked,"When are you taking the test you don't have
the experience". His
reply was; September, & as for the hands on
experience, he told me they
have a generic grid tie system that they assemble &
unassembled a few times
that "met the hands on requirements". I asked
what about the time frame of
work?, to which he replied that " the instructor &
the IBEW were pressuring
NABCEP to wave this requirements!.
I am aware that there is a shortage of "Properly
Trained" installers but if
the above is true then once again. OUR NABCEP credentials
are being watered
downed to benefit a few!
NABCEP & the teacher (contractual obligations?) profit
by waving these
requirements, but the public & those of us who have
HONESTLY met the
requirements LOSE!
Where is the NABCEP representative on the board? Are you
involved during
these discussions?What is your response to this?
Are these board discussions involving the whole board?
Perhaps this another
one of the boards secret meetings that "aren't
secret"? Doesn't the board
have a responsibility to the folks who have become
certified, maintaining
the acme of standards in the installation field?
Is this a discussion that was slated for the annual
meeting? Hummm, the test
is in September & the annual meeting is in October.
Would someone "in the know" like to respond to
this?
We already discussed the lack of "transparency of the
NABCEP board" early
this year. I seem to remember being told "the Wrench
list was NOT the place
to have these discussions".
When we hear about this kind of thing, from outside the
NABCEP organization,
anyplace is a good place to not only question the board,
but also to discuss
it!
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<http://www.swnl.net/>
www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"
******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer /
Installer"
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