We dropped the gird using the HBX like Phil mentioned and allowed the wind to charge. It took 4 hours for the loads to drain the batteries to LVC. I thought the charger would wait an hour and then search for grid to charge, but it never did. Either way, it got the point across to the homeowner that:
1) very poor RE resource 2) poor load analysis 3) unfortunate the contractor didn't sit down with them and discuss this Jesse Sent from my iPad!!! On Aug 25, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Phil Undercuffler <[email protected]> wrote: > Sounds like a case of bad design, misrepresentation to the customer > and not understanding the equipment. > > If they have FX3048T inverters, they cannot sell excess RE generation > (and I'm going to be gracious and set aside for a moment any > assumptions about the installation of these particular turbines, or > ability to produce RE power) to the grid. Therefore, they either can > operate the protected loads "off-grid" by using the HBX mode to drop > the grid, cycling their batteries, and hopefully charging them from > the wind's input. Alternately, they can put the inverters into backup > mode to protect the downstream loads from a utility outage. That's > probably what they are doing now, as it's the default when that > inverter sees an AC input. The offgrid FX assumes the AC input is > generator, so figures if you're running a genny you don't want the > charger to go silent. The batteries are at float, and the turbines > are producing squat -- and that's not because of tower height or > siting or turbine quality, it's because the batteries are full and the > loads are being supplied by the grid and there's nowhere to put excess > energy. > > You can cycle the batteries and pray for enough RE generation to keep > the batteries charged. Or float the batteries and let the turbines be, > well, yard art. If you can't sell the power back to the utility, the > batteries will sit in float and the RE generation will go into > regulation. Or you can swap out the FX for GTFX inverters and sell. > The GTFX inverter has the additional advantage in it "knows" the AC > input is grid, and won't float the batteries from grid power. That by > itself will reduce the AC consumed from the utility. Plus, you get > the benefit of selling the great excess RE. If you don't want to go > full-bore utility-interactive the Radian has an additional capability > to "offset" utility power with RE power and not cycle the batteries, > but it's generally better to be utility interactive whenever possible. > > Mainly it sounds like a matter of figuring out what the client wants > to achieve, and then setting up the right equipment in the best way to > get that job done. The last handful of guys didn't do that, hopefully > you will be able to help them understand this, and then make this > system right. And get it in writing. > > Best wishes for this, > > Phil > > > > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Kent Osterberg <[email protected]> wrote: >> Jesse, >> >> Sometimes the best thing you can do for a customer is document, in writing, >> what's wrong. And walk away if they aren't willing to fix it. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. >> www.bluemountainsolar.com >> >> On 8/24/2012 6:36 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote: >> >> Im with you on the wisdom of it. >> >> The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid tie, but there are >> very few people that understand the off-grid applications (DT is the only >> person I think is worth listening to.) The contractor they chose was the >> only contractor the home owners spoke to that lacked any type of >> certification, not that that means anything. The homeowner told them what >> they wanted to do and the contractor said okay. Even though it was a poor >> idea. I was shown email conversations between the two. Of course there is >> always two sides to these stories... >> >> The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge two battery >> banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters. Both inverters were also >> tied to the homes panelboard to help charge the bank in-case of low wind. >> The two Outbacks fed a 100A panelboard that had a few loads from the home >> wired to it (well pump, furnace, sump, various receptacles) The panel also >> has a bypass switch that allows it to bypass the inverters all together and >> use straight grid power to run the loads. >> >> The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers, the contractor supplied >> the inverters and electrical BOS and the 16 MK 12V batteries. Another >> contractor came up to program the setpoints. >> >> I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I keep finding them >> up here, its getting a little old. >> >> I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80 feet or to scrap >> both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the want to hire me, what I say >> goes and if I say it all comes out to start over, that's what happens. >> >> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in >>> this application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters (board change >>> out) to grid tie models, which would allow the inverter's to transfer the >>> loads to the grid (internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an >>> outage to back up. the only additional use the system would bring to their >>> bill is re-floating the batteries occasionally. >>> >>> with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind gennys), basically >>> they have an expensive whole-house ups. i wonder what the intention or >>> original design was supposed to do? >>> >>> >>> >>> todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, August 24, 2012 9:14am, "Jesse Dahl" <[email protected]> >>> said: >>> >>> I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have gathered is an >>> absolute bust. Just doing a little online research it seems like they are >>> getting next to nothing from the wind generators. >>> From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I would >>> say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads. >>> This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN. >>> Jesse >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a >>> household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much >>> wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility >>> bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the >>> house. Batteries are energy losers! >>> >>> What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. >>> The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of >>> them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since >>> they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - >>> behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave >>> like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy >>> separately - a two register meter. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On >>> 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote: >>> >>> The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T >>> in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue. >>> They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the >>> ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an >>> understatement. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually >>> charge for power when you are selling. >>> Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on >>> all the time. >>> David Katz >>> >>> >>> ----- Reply message ----- >>> From: "Jesse Dahl" <[email protected]> >>> To: "Wrenches" <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging >>> Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed >>> recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill >>> has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback >>> using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim >>> the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the >>> system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any >>> ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. >>> >>> What I know about the system: >>> 2 - outback inverters, 48v >>> 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers >>> 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter) >>> >>> I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow >>> it down before the drive. >>> >>> Thanks eh! >>> >>> Jesse >>> >>> Sent from my iPad!!! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: [email protected] > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [email protected] Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
