This is why I use the XW! They start just about anything and they are one 6.8KW inverter, not multiple like the Radian. I do like the radian and use it. For large motors, XW is hard to beat. The battery needs to be at least 800 AH for this large motor app. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail [email protected] [2] text 209 813 0060
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks so much for the reference. I still am at an impasse. I have an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as you know HP is not a definitive determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on the situation. I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly. This particular sewage macerator has high head. I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump (attached) and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single phase unit. Internet research shows you can't do much with single phase with the standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are other electronic approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the existing control panel. Anyone else with experience that might be relevant? Thanks! And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks! Jeff Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz [3]. To finish the client never made the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this provides another option. Sincerely, Christopher 229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: [email protected] [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jerry, I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning. Thanks for the reference! Best, Jeff Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: Wrenches I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works either way Jerry On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Thanks Chris! Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start. That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump control company has thus far revealed. Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but that's my initial findings. Anyone know differently? Thanks! Jeff [email protected] [8] wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it's been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden and the usual domestic water loads. It's worked flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [9] FROM: RE-wrenches [10] ON BEHALF OF Dana SENT: Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM TO: 'Jeff Clearwater' [11]; 'RE-wrenches' [12] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite of doing load evaluations font-family: 'Century Gothic'; font-size: large;"> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com [13] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Jeff Clearwater SENT: Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Hey Wrenches, Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. Thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [16] www.villagepowerdesign.com [17] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: Thanks Ray and Jerry, Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) SO YES LOOKING AT THE 5 SEC HAS ME SWITCHING BACK TO A TRUSTY RADIAN - EVEN THEN FROM WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IT MAY NOT WORK. And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. SO THIS 53 LRA 2 HP MOTOR - IF I CAN ONLY TRUST THE 5 SECOND (50 A) MIGHT NOT START - ESPECIALLY WITH OTHER LOADS ON THE SYSTEM? RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: MAXIMUM OUTPUT CURRENT 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC OVERLOAD CAPABILITY 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa 5 seconds 12 kVa 30 minute 9 kVa Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? Thanks! Jeff Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: HEY THERE WRENCHES, So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. But that brings me to my second question: What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? YOUR ENGINEERING WISDOM WELCOMED! Thanks, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: Hi Jeff, I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because they start anything I have come across. If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater [18] wrote: Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. THE SW HAS THE FOLLOWING SURGE CAPABILITY: SW 4048 RATED @ 240 VOLTS: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -- DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] [19] Change listserver email address font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html [21] List rules font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] [24] Change listserver email address font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html [26] List rules font-family: 'Courier New'; 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