Hello Andrew, I find your opinion on needing Rapid Shutdown. Critters chewing on wires is the reason why they implemented article 690.11 of the NEC, arc fault detection.
What does module level shut down do? Well mostly nothing, especially in energy storage systems. In standard grid-tie systems IF the inverter detects the arc, the inverter will shut down. Most Rapid shutdown solutions are PLC solutions, so the inverter trips off, and then the voltage gets reduced to less than 80v within the array boundary (rapid shutdown activated). 80v is still high enough for a sustainable arc to occur that can melt MC4s. If the same rapid shutdown topology is for an energy storage system, rapid shutdown won't occur (an inverter error keeps RSD active, due to Energy storage). So in reality the rapid shutdown devices doesn't do a thing. Sustainable regards, Chris Connell -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 4:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [GREY] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 28 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. MLSD module level shutdown ([email protected]) 2. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Solar Energy Solutions) 3. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Kristopher Schmid) 4. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (frenergy) 5. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) 6. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Ray) 7. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Cc: Melissa Ann MacCarthy <[email protected]> Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz ?Just An Old Wrench? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 19:56:08 +0000 (UTC) From: Solar Energy Solutions <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Cc: Melissa Ann MacCarthy <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear All, I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. Smiles, ?Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz ?Just An Old Wrench? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/c80252ee/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:17:06 -0600 From: Kristopher Schmid <[email protected]> To: RE-wrenches <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <cajb-is-9cisjjyalsuiorrbuhmdm4zwnpvs8afwqvs-ydgo...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Sky, I, for one, totally agree. While I agree with the need to keep firefighters safe, it seems to me that rules regarding solar conduit would serve the same purpose; required labeling of rooftop conduit beyond the array boundary, required distance below roof deck for attic conduit, etc. I am sure that there is a fair amount of lobbying by SolarEdge and Enphase to keep the rapid shutdown rules unchanged and retain their market share. While MLPE have their place in the industry, they should not be the only viable choice for a roof mounted array. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 1:25 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/e2d8f2cd/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:58:08 -0800 From: frenergy <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Andrew, ??? ??? ??? If these are the only two examples of justification of MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less expensive, durable solution.? For the squirrel problem, an alternate solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.? Not only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine needles, etc. ??? ??? ??? Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?? Poor wire management? And was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on the wiring? ??? ??? ??? I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of reasons. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed too > many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... > mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from residential fires to > holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I never thought I would see > the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but > advocating for it. > > Smiles, > **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** > *President* > **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ > ** > *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors move**towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > **503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com <http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/> ** > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, > [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the > requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/dfccba2d/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800 From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <[email protected]> To: "RE-wrenches" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Sly, The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground mounting and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid shutdown at MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned with. The Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in it, that is useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the extra electronics that can affect reliability. We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a rare defect from causing a wildfire. I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys please? FRIDAY !!! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail [email protected] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, [email protected] wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its > impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with > mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have > nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. > This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:26:49 -0500 From: Ray <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Yes, I would like more info too.? I'm all about safety, but it needs to be based on reality not theory.? For instance, would string level shut down have stopped the arcs you mentioned?? Also, I second the screening.? Even if MLSD stops the fire, the rodents have still won the day by taking out part of the array.? How about an exemption from MLSD for systems below a certain voltage, and having animal guard in place, and those would still have string level shut down. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/29/21 3:58 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Andrew, > > ??? ??? ??? If these are the only two examples of justification of > MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I > suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less > expensive, durable solution.? For the squirrel problem, an alternate > solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.? Not > only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine > needles, etc. > > ??? ??? ??? Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires > that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?? Poor wire management? And > was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on > the wiring? > > ??? ??? ??? I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of > reasons. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the >> reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed >> too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by >> critters... mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from >> residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I >> never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking >> MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. >> >> Smiles, >> **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** >> *President* >> **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ >> ** >> *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors move**towards >> an environmentally sustainable future.* >> **503-238-4502 >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com <http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/> ** >> >> >> On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, >> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow >> to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels >> like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough >> forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going >> out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. >> Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the >> installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure >> of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious >> issue costing the industry time and resources and making our >> installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended >> goal of the requirement. >> I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on >> bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. >> >> Your thoughts are appreciated, >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> ?Just An Old Wrench? >> _______________________________________________ >> > -- > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_ > campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/e8f416c9/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:29:12 -0800 From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <[email protected]> To: "RE-wrenches" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Ben, Dave had to go on a service call up into the high county. No cell ! I expect him back before dark. Probably will get back in the AM Thanks, Ingrid Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail [email protected] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Sly, > > The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground > mounting and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid > shutdown at MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned > with. The Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in > it, that is useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the > extra electronics that > can affect reliability. > > We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a > rare defect from causing a wildfire. > > I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys > please? FRIDAY !!! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail [email protected] > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, [email protected] wrote: >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow >> to > our >> industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels >> like this > requirement >> was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its >> impact > on >> the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with >> mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have >> nothing to > do >> with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all >> due > to >> premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. >> This > is >> a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making >> our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the >> intended > goal >> of the requirement. >> I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on >> bringing a > more >> sensible approach to this requirement. >> >> Your thoughts are appreciated, >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> ?Just An Old Wrench? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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