On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:14 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
> Here’s my two cents, > > If you do end up putting in two new batteries, and you leave everything > wired the way it is, you’d better really watch the rest of the batteries > that are in that string. The new batteries will have a lower internal > resistance, so the two strings that are all old batteries will have a lower > current. This means they charge much more slowly, and the one string that > has the two new batteries in it will charge much more quickly. This > increased current in the one string often results in overheating of the > weakest cells that are in the same string with the new cells. While > charging, the old batteries that are in the same string as the new > batteries will have a higher voltage because of this internal resistance. > > The worst cells will get the hottest, then the heat will cause the > internal resistance to increase, which will cause more heat. The batteries > can seem good at first, but after a little while, this cycle can get > dangerous. The last time that one of my clients tried this maneuver of > replacing two “bad” L16s in the bank of otherwise “good” L16s, the plastic > started melting and I believe it was close to a catastrophe. > > Unless you’re running a laboratory experiment, I strongly recommend never > mixing all the new batteries. Make sure you are fully aware of the hazards, > do you know what to expect in terms of internal resistance is changing the > charging characteristics. > > Best of luck, > Kienan > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* > > *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* > > *maxfieldso...@hotmail.com <https://maxfieldso...@hotmail.com/>* > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > > On Apr 5, 2023, at 7:34 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Wrenches, > > I feel compelled to chime in here. Ten years ago, we > installed 24, Rolls 2-KS-33P, 2 volt batteries for the shop. Though they > were in a climate-controlled environment and maybe went to 50% SOC a dozen > times over 10 years, usually ranged 75-100% SOC, we had the first failure > just before 7 year warranty ended. Unfortunately soon after there were two > more failures we had to pay for, then most recently 2-3 more were very > difficult to maintain good SGs and were sagging more in voltage when > loaded. We tried several EQs and then deep discharges and hard and long > re-charges to try and de-sulphate without luck. So we recently replaced > the pack. We know how to care for FLA batteries, been doing so since the > 80's. > > I'm not faulting Rolls/Surrette, Steve Higgins tried to help, > *maybe* I should take some responsibility but the reason I am sharing > this bad experience (I was expecting 15++ years from this kind of battery) > is at some point after installation I checked the date codes and found > there were 5, count them FIVE different dates, one or two of which were *more > than a year old* when purchased. Ouch. Another expensive lesson > learned. Hopefully Rolls has a better handle now-a-days on their post > manufacture supply chain. Do you think the different distributors that > sent their "back-in-the-corner" unclaimed 2-KS-33p's to my distributor to > make up my pack had their 2V chargers floating the batteries all that time? > me neither. > > Moral of the story: *Check date codes* on that big beautiful > pack of lead you're ready to load onto the truck. I'm now making it clear > to our distributor that I won't be loading batteries on my truck unless > dates codes match, which they did on the replacement SimpliPHI's. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/5575+Genesee+Rd?entry=gmail&source=g>. > (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 4/4/2023 4:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hurts my head ! Agree that you will have more trips to this house after > the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more years. All of > the wiring is good, clean, and tight? Who really knows how long it could > last? Probably fine thru summer and fall. > > Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of capacity > choices there from Rolls and others. > > Almost Cheers time ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/> > e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <offgridso...@sti.net> > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to > charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, but max > # of cells, and that's double my maximum. > > You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of how > long L16s will last. If the customer is barely using the available > capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I > think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using batteries > for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer suffering come > into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more water at the end of > life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage. > > Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on > another 2 years of service. My guess is that you will probably have more > cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty replacements. > Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are going to start > failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) > > Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially LVD) > can be tricky with older inverters. I had to use the aux out on the CC to > switch off the inverters. IF the inverters are Outback, they have a remote > switch, if its something else, you might have to actually switch off a > relay on the AC output. > > Ray > On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a > different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I > researched it and asked my peers. > > > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want > to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the > prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank > before planning to replace. > > > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. > So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree > that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply > because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a client with essentially > nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 > strings, they can make due at least. That'll go out the window with Lithium > though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this > client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed. > > > > With Regards, > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > da...@sesre.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> > <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On Behalf Of *Dave Angelini > Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <offgridso...@sti.net> > <offgridso...@sti.net> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > > > 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for > a new bank. > > I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 > years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. > > > > Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>* > > *e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <offgridso...@sti.net>* > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the > ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries > from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new > Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net > result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No > freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add > the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the > 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) > > > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead > batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they > baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them > shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are > of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a > big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older > faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery > bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other > batteries would cause. > > > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a > fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the > whole battery bank finally gives out. > > > > With Regards, > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > da...@sesre.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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