About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years. after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off grid system. I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows how to charge them.
On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < [email protected]> wrote: > Ray, > > Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of > Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in > Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to > Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the > past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window > into how they truly operate over time. > > Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be > upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also > is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls > lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet > connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which > lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away. > > I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known > quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. > Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps > what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a > "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it > already exists. > > A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the > fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as > the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed > up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and > as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the > battery manufacturer and vice versa. > > Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches > list. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, > Christopher > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Ray >> >> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. >> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. >> >> But that sure sucks. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh >> batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off >> grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the >> barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been >> smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, >> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept >> used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been >> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. >> >> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after >> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. >> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer >> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the >> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with >> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I >> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time >> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge >> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but >> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not >> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no >> loads. >> >> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage >> event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback >> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi >> integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they >> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed >> = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential >> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS >> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on >> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. >> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off >> grid; its a tough gig. >> >> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu >> on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over >> voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, >> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their >> batteries. >> >> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would >> have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. >> That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is >> saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be >> seen. The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 >> weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall >> more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a >> couple of years? >> >> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a >> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or >> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was >> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid >> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but >> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite >> robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning >> signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am >> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay >> with pet heaters'* BS either. >> >> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks >> that don't rely on it, like GTB. >> >> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off >> of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We >> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the >> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. >> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being >> wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't >> start failing on my watch. >> >> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a >> chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", >> and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. <rant off> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS >> failure/warranty/fix/replacement. >> >> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. >> >> I guess its something else we need to check on. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an >> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course >> East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with >> the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Pals: >>> >>> >>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >>> >>> >>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >>> >>> >>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >>> lead-acid batteries. >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: [email protected] > <[email protected]>* > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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