We talked a bit on IM, so I understand why things might appear hypocritical.
I am not upset or offended by the existence of Rei. Actually quite the opposite. As some may know, I spend most of my time at 3Di pushing for it, even started it under a different name (http://code.google.com/p/portia-viewer/) before 3Di cancelled it, only to fail having it implemented by two Japanese game companies, only to start it up again. If anything Rei is a vindication. :) Moreover, as Rei is open source, and license compatible, there is always something we can learn from it, so it's always a net gain. My point is that reX made a good faith effort to include 3Di in Naali, but was largely ignored. Therefore reX did it's part to stop proliferation of many incomplete viewers, and the consequences for proliferation and fragmentation lie with 3Di. I am reassuring the reX community that we did our best, so please don't blame us. Your point is that Idealist did the same thing as before, and the responsibility for reX contributing to fragmentation is with reX; and you are right. However I feel the situation is not entirely symmetrical. What might have given the impression I am annoyed, it's because of the effort I went to to include 3Di, only to be treated dismissively or just outright ignored (which near as I can tell, I never did to you). Also precisely why they went to such lengths to distance themselves from a product they used frequently before I joined realXtend, is a mystery. If anyone should harbor a grudge, it is me for having my project cancelled. :D The reason why realXtend couldn't proceed with Idealist, although the idea was seriously considered is the following: 1. different scope: Idealist wants to be a VW viewer; reX has a bolder mission as documented extensively on our wiki 2. language and rendering engine: more than half of realXtend are professional C++ programmers with years of experience with Ogre3D; tossing that out for C# and Irrlicht is not a trivial matter 3. commit rights: in most open source commit rights are earned by building on previous authors work iteratively; reX developers needed to implement their own, different (see #1) vision immediately 4. licensing: at the time Idealist had a no tolerance policy for people who have worked on LL viewer, although now it may be a 6-month cooling off period; this would have made it impossible for reX to commit to Idealist For Rei, they are obviously into C# and Irrlicht, so it is natural that they would start life as a fork of Idealist, which of course should be a vindication for you. :) Cheers, On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Teravus Ovares <tera...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I had this exact discussion with you, Ryan, almost a year ago about > IdealistViewer... wondering why realXtend went out of their way to > do an entirely new viewer (Naali was in the planning process at the > time). I was going out of my way to keep everyone informed on the > status if IdealistViewer. You said that you thought it was good that > realXtend was making a completely new viewer instead of working on > supporting existing viewers at the time. Your reasons for doing it > were quite mysterious to me since IdealistViewer was progressing very > nicely. It seemed to me like duplicating work.. > > Your response to the release of Rai ( you seem offended that 3di made > their own viewer ) , now, is hypocritical considering that you thought > it was a good thing for separate viewers to be developed when you > started Naali. > > That said, I'm keeping informed about the state of all 3rd party BSD > licensed viewers (Naali, Rei ) and entirely new systems (sirikata) and > am willing to work with each towards improving the quality of the > simulations. It looks to me like, to use the 3di browser viewer in > it's current state you need to use the 3di server to get textures and > avatar mesh. One thing that's great about it being open source now > though, is, if people like the idea of a browser based viewer, they > can tweak the asset/texture pipeline to get it to work, completely, on > a stock opensimulator. I know that Naali has a nice tab for stock > OpenSimulator login already :). > > > Regards > > Teravus > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 4:50 AM, Ryan McDougall <sempu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Mark Malewski <mark.malew...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> Ryan, >>> Thanks for the quick response. What are your thoughts on this? Do you >>> think it would help speed up development on the new RealXtend viewer? It >> >> There might be some ideas here or there, but the design, mission, and >> implementation language are all quite different. >> >> 3Di knew of realXtend's work from very early on, as I made sure to >> keep them informed ahead of even public announcements, including >> multiple requests to work closely together. My emails and IMs went >> largely unanswered, and eventually they made a conscious decision to >> go their own direction. I was told quite clearly that they were >> interested in working with the OpenSim community, but not realXtend. >> >> The precise reasons for all this are quite mysterious to me. >> >>> certainly would be nice to have a web-browser based viewer that would work >>> with ModRex/RealXtend. >>> Would it possibly make more sense to pull a developer off of "Taiga" and put >> >> I don't think it makes sense to divert realXtend resources from the >> Naali viewer to support Rei. I do hope that Rei can be one day made to >> work on multiple backends, including RealXtend, as ultimately it's >> just SLUDP extended for meshes. >> >> Cheers, >> >>> a developer on "Rei" and possibly just modify it so that it will work with >>> BOTH OpenSim stock, and also ModRex? (this way we would have one viewer >>> that would work on both platforms natively?) >>>> Originally 3Di's proprietary product was based on realXtend. Nearest I >>>> can tell it still is >>> So do you believe that this viewer could possibly work with the latest >>> OpenSim + ModRex? >>>> If it doesn't rely on ModreX atm, it's only because the reimplemented >>>> something functionally equivalent for the express purpose of not >>>> depending on ModreX, which would be sad, as we have always been happy >>>> to work with 3Di, but they seem to be uninterested in working with us. >>> That is really sad. I understand it might possibly have something to do >>> with their "business model" (on their Enterprise/commercial product), but >>> I'd like to talk to Norman, because I really would like to see this work >>> natively with RealXtend's ModRex. >>> Do you think this "Rei" Viewer could easily be modified to work with BOTH >>> OpenSim stock, and also OpenSim + ModRex? >>> Have you had a chance to look over the Source code yet? Do you think it >>> would make more sense to maybe divert some attention away from the current >>> "NexGen" Viewer (Taiga?) and possibly look at modifying this "Rei" Viewer so >>> that we can use it with ModRex? I think it would be great to have a >>> web-based viewer for RealXtend. What are your thoughts on this? >>>> Originally 3Di's proprietary product was based on realXtend. Nearest I >>>> can tell it still is >>> Do you have any ideas how far 3Di's proprietary product is behind the >>> current OpenSim trunk? With all of OpenSim's latest changes (on the server >>> side), do you have any ideas if this viewer would even work on the latest >>> stock build/release of OpenSim? How hard do you think it would be to >>> update/modify this "Rei" viewer to work with the latest OpenSim + ModRex? I >>> understand the Rex Dev's are spread pretty thin right now, but do you think >>> from a development standpoint, that it might make more sense to put a ReX >>> developer or two on this "Rei" Viewer, and maybe get "Rei" Viewer working >>> with the latest OpenSim + ModRex? >>> I hate to sound ignorant, but do you think the latest "ROBUST" changes (by >>> Diva) on the OpenSim Server would have ANY effect on the Viewer at all? >>> Mark >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:28 AM, Ryan McDougall <sempu...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Mark Malewski <mark.malew...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > RealXtend, >>>> > Have any of the RealXtend core developer's had a chance to look at this >>>> > OpenSource "Rei" viewer yet? >>>> >>>> Yeah, as a former employee of 3Di, I've known this was in the works >>>> for a while. Looking at the source code atm. >>>> >>>> > It seems to be an OpenSource web-based viewer. It looks pretty cool. >>>> > Would >>>> > this OpenSource contribution help RealXtend's Viewer project in any way? >>>> >>>> In theory it fills a gap where people want to run a realXtend world in >>>> the browser. See below. >>>> >>>> > Could this viewer be easily modified to work with BOTH the stock >>>> > OpenSim >>>> > AND also work with RealXtend & ModRex? >>>> >>>> Originally 3Di's proprietary product was based on realXtend. Nearest I >>>> can tell it still is, as realXtend viewer is required to construct 3Di >>>> OpenSim worlds. >>>> >>>> If it doesn't rely on ModreX atm, it's only because the reimplemented >>>> something functionally equivalent for the express purpose of not >>>> depending on ModreX, which would be sad, as we have always been happy >>>> to work with 3Di, but they seem to be uninterested in working with us. >>>> >>>> > Mark >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Mark Malewski <mark.malew...@gmail.com> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Nlin, >>>> >> Thank-you very much for the post, that seems like an excellent >>>> >> contribution to the OpenSim Community! >>>> >> I'm wondering what type of effect this might have on RealXtend's >>>> >> project >>>> >> development of a new viewer? >>>> >> Will this "Rei" viewer work with the latest stock OpenSim server? >>>> >> Mark >>>> >> >>>> >> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:24 PM, nlin wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hello, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Today 3Di's in-browser viewer source code has been opened up, as the >>>> >>> project 3Di Viewer "Rei". The license is BSD. Please have a look if >>>> >>> you are >>>> >>> interested! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Project home page: http://3di-rei.org >>>> >>> Press release: http://3di.jp/en/news/2009093001.html >>>> >>> >>>> >>> We're very interested in further development of this open source >>>> >>> viewer >>>> >>> with the community. Thanks to the IdealistViewer developers, as >>>> >>> portions of >>>> >>> Rei use source code from an early version of IdealistViewer. Rei uses >>>> >>> no >>>> >>> code from GPL-licensed viewers. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The Rei source code is in git at github, with the main repository at: >>>> >>> http://github.com/3di/3di-viewer-rei >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> -nlin >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >> >> > >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend http://www.realxtend.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
