* Jason Costomiris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 06:57:58PM +0000, Tom Gilbert wrote:
> : I'd like to use this forum to attempt to get a straight answer from
> : Redhat on this one :)
>
> Well, I'm not from RHAT, but I've got what I feel are some perfectly good
> reasons for what's been done.
Let's see :-P
> : I work on this wm, and would like an explanation from someone at Redhat
> : please. We have worked hard to improve the product, and 0.16.x is a
> : league ahead of 0.15.x in terms of useability and performance. We have
> : written several gui config tools and lots of documentation.
> :
> : I have read the explanation on the site, which is basically "we couldn't
> : be bothered to configure it, so we stuck with the old version", and am
> : rather annoyed as a result :)
>
> That's not what I got out of the explanation at all. What I got was
> more along the lines of "E16 adds a lot of cruft that doesn't build
> on the functionality present with E15 + GNOME."
Ok. But it does :) It fixes a large number of bugs, an iconbox, adds
documentation, improves speed, and reduces memory usage. Is that wrong
somehow?
> Let's face it, Raster has stated, publicly, I might add, that it is his
> intent for the E project to create its *own* desktop environment that
No. Not a desktop environment. Not a rival to GNOME. A desktop *shell*.
An environment comes with it's own suite of apps, like GNOME does, we
have no such plans. And as always with E, you can take as much or as
little of it as you want. It'll all turn off and on.
> is in no way connected to GNOME. It sure looks to me (someone who isn't
> involved in either project), that Raster has a bad case of sour grapes.
Please don't make this a personal issue. That has nothing to do with
redhat's decision to hold us back.
> The whole finger-pointing thing when he left RHAT, and now GNOME is
> phasing out using Imlib in favor of GdkPixbuf, in order to overcome
> shortcomings of Imlib that Raster doesn't seem willing to fix.
Not fixing? Are you aware of the nearly complete imlib2? Clearly not.
> : The only change that could explain this is the fact the current
> : Enlightenment version doesn't come perfectly configured for use with
> : GNOME out of the box, but actually requires two config files to be
> : changed slightly (wow), and one compile-time option to a supplementary
> : package (epplets), whereas the last version was ideally suited out of
> : the box.
>
> Did it ever occur to you that it's got nothing to do with the fact that
> TODAY you need to do two minor changes? Again, consider Raster's
So how do you account for "we'll update it in a later release"?
> statements about creating E's own desktop environment. RHAT has a large
> investment in both time and resources in making GNOME a success. Why
> would they want to deride their own work? Don't believe me? Read it
> for yourself at:
>
> http://www.enlightenment.org/about.html
Why does any of that deride GNOME's work?
> His attitude smacks of "Bah! Who needs GNOME or KDE?!?!?". Now that
> the shoe's on the other foot, you're complaining.
No. That's not at all fair. He doesn't use it himself, a great many E
users run GNOME or KDE, enlightenment supports both (and was the first
wm to offer such support btw).
> If it were up to me, I probably would have included E16, with the couple
> of changes, but dumped it the second it added more "changes" for the
> maintainers of the packages to maintain.
Luckily it's not up to you.
I said quite clearly, E runs fine with GNOME with a couple of tweaks
(that could be done in the spec file).
> : The 0.16.x documentation includes several FAQs on configuring
> : enlightenment for use with GNOME, and it is extremely easy to do. E is a
> : very configurable window manager, and many people use it in conjunction
> : with GNOME, no problem at all.
>
> It also eats memory like crazy! On my desktop, when I switched from E16
> to Sawmill, memory usage was cut in half. The machine was appreciably
> faster as well. The machine's no slouch either. See:
>
> http://www.jasons.org/anthrax.php
Oh please. I'm not here to discuss pros and cons. This is entirely
irrelavent. E's usage depends how you set it up. The version I am
running here:
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT LIB %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
300 gilbertt 1 0 4296 4296 2084 S 0 0.0 1.6 0:01 enlightenmen
Consumes 4M, 2 of which is shared.
Here's the blackbox on the machine next door (it has less RAM, so ignore
the %MEM figure):
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT LIB %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
709 vturner 0 0 2020 2015 1116 S 0 0.0 2.3 0:01 blackbox
And here's it running Sawmill:
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT LIB %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
772 vturner 0 0 2352 2352 1664 S 0 0.0 2.7 0:01 blackbox
The blackbox and sawmill screens are empty, running one terminal, with
nothing else open. My enlightenment is running all the apps seen in:
http://www.btinternet.com/~gilbertt/screenshots.html
This is hardly eating memory like crazy. The more data you store, the
more memory you use. It's as simple as that. I have run themes with
enlightenment that cause it's use to drop to 1.5Mb RSS, but I have no
need, as I have 256Mb, and hate to waste it :)
Please see http://www.btinternet.com/~gilbertt/tips.html to read about
memory usage and what it means.
That was a tangent, and irrelavent to the matter at hand.
> : And finally, every support request for 0.15.5 that comes from a redhat
> : 6.2 user will be forwarded to this list. Thankyou.
>
> Hmm.. I don't see:
>
> XFce
> IceWM
> Blackbox
>
> in RH 6.2 either. Maybe they should moan and wail too.
That's not the point.
> Hey look, tcl/tk are 8.0.5. The scriptics people aren't screaming bloody
> murder.
I'm not screaming bloody murder :) I am asking for a decent explanation.
I will happily put together a .spec file if someone from there asks for
it. The point is, we weren't asked, just disregarded.
> When building a software release consisting of parts taken from numerous
> sources, you go with what best fits your needs. E16 adds a lot of stuff
> that RH 6.2 doesn't need. Personally, I didn't care for E15 either.
What? This is about the *USERS*. What do *they* need? Let's see, buggy
E15, or unbuggy E16, oooh. I wonder....
I don't care what you want personally. The important thing is that
it's in the distro for you to *choose*.
> At the time, it was all we really had that did the things I wanted, but
> that time has passed, at least for me. To me, it would all be the
> same if RHAT didn't even include E.
Yes, but you are not the only redhat user.
I don't use apache, maybe RHAT should drop it? Of course not. That wood
be bloody stupid =)
> One of my co-workers summed it up the best when he said (and I wrote
> down), "Window managers should be just that - a piece of software that
> manages windows. It gives you borders and window controls and stays out
> of your way by not littering your screen with extra stuff. It should be
> attractive, lightweight, configurable and not be loaded down with all
> sorts of dancing baloney that just sucks up more RAM and CPU." That
> little statement is the first thing that we hand new programmers as a
> part of our programming style guide.
Ok. Well one of my co-workers summed it up best when he said
"A window manager should do what *I* *WANT*. It should be what *I* *WANT*,
and it should look, act and feel like *I* *WANT*. No other window
manager gives me that power."
I personally want the best out of my system, and am glad to have a wm
that I can tune to use as much or as little of it as I want.
*shrug*
Tom.
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