[By the way, we all know this isn't an unfriendly debate right? -- it's just a conversation about a popular repeater type -- if someone out there is getting "angry" about it, you're probably too worked up over this one. I'm just feeling out Kevin on why he finds this type of configuration important. Playing devil's advocate, if you like. But I *do* think the stock M2 works just fine without the switch... read on for more, or hit delete -- your choice! BIG GRIN...]
On Dec 7, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Kevin Custer wrote: > GE Technicians didn't have to ask for the switch Nate, they didn't > work on MASTR II's that had the repeater card removed. > Invalid point.... You left out the rest of it. I clearly said the off-board repeater controller replaced the on-board. But there was more I didn't say. They only had "Repeat Disable" -- there NEVER has been a "Transmit Disable" switch, and plenty of stations were both repeaters and hooked up to 4-wire interfaces. The dispatcher could still make the box transmit, even with "Repeat Disable" active. So it never has been a proper way to "safe" the transmitter in many common configurations. The way to safe the transmitter was... any of the aforementioned methods. Thus, even though I brought it up, I neglected to mention that "Repeat Disable" in some configurations, doesn't disable the transmitter at all. (GRIN) > You cannot EASILY nor QUICKLY disable the repeater by functionality > of the repeater controller, unless the controller has a manually > operated switch on the front panel. Most don't include such a > switch, sorry.... I think a couple of DTMF digits and a macro (into the control receiver if you're paranoid) is pretty easy. Heck, why buy a $100-$400 repeater controller if you're not going to use it -- replace it with a $3 switch. Might as well test out that control receiver too, since you're standing right there and can watch it. DTMF detector still working? Control receiver gone deaf? Why not? Making its use part of normal maintenance might turn up something useful. Flipping a switch that never gets used for anything else just adds a step to be forgotten. Heh.... might as well stuff an ID-8 in the thing, leave the original repeat card in the shelf, and call it done -- if the controller's not going to get used for controlling things. (Pet peeve alert: Controllers seem to add features, but they're far less useful on-site for "control" as they are for "remote control". Why AREN'T there some push-buttons on the front of these things that are software inputs to toggle things, etc... no one seems to ever do that! And now that I think about it, I wish I'd have thought of that sooner, for mentioning to the S-Com guys! Oh well!) Hey speaking of "forgetting" the switch -- Dave and Bob were talking about adding a feature to the 7330 once, that sounded nifty. If a transmitter were disabled, since the front panel LED's are software controlled, they were talking about having any disabled TX port flash at a constant rate. Close up the M2 after using Kevin's disable switch mod, you can't see the switch. Turn the TX off in the controller, you'll see it as you're closing up the Station/rack/room door/whatever on the LED's! Nifty, huh? Don't know if they got that one into the code yet or not, but I thought it was cool... a little "cry for help" from the front panel LED's if you were to glance back over your shoulder and look as you left. Neat-o. Disabled TX = blinky blinky blinky... oops. Grab HT from belt loop, punch a few digits, light stops blinking and system is back in normal status. Yay. No need to unlock the cabinet, drop the drawer, flip the switch, cuss, and close it all back up again. (Hey, also -- of course, the above scenario with the regular control cards in the shelf and an ID'er is a perfectly valid option, if you have a remote way to turn the power off to the whole repeater as "control" from elsewhere. No one here probably wants that limited of a feature set, so it's a moot point... but a solid ham repeater which repeats properly and ID's properly from a stock MASTR II station and an ID board, would certainly be a "minimalist" approach that would be just fine for many folks. > Oh you are getting through, loud and clear. I just don't think > others are going to buy into your thinking..... I doubt it, but we all have our opinions! I think the MASTR II is a great rig, especially the Stations -- and I'm highly doubtful that their design was flawed much really for a repeater... they've never had a true TX disable, and obviously hundreds of people didn't need one. Hams tinkering to "make things better" is fine, but they work great without the switch. (Now you're going to point out that the MASTR III has a TX Disable switch on it, right? hehehehehe... You got me there! It *is* a software switch though, and theoretically could be used for anything... heh heh. The M3 also STE's before actually turning the TX off when you throw it, on the ones I've seen... that's probably a software setting somewhere too, but it's not a true "TX DISABLE" immediately like you're adding... it's a soft-switch that tells the internal controller to STE and then drop. It also isn't hidden behind a door and has a big obnoxious RED LED to tell you you've forgotten something! GRIN...) > Above, you agree that the original manual disable switch is useful, > but when that switch is removed (because of removing the original > control card that had the switch), you don't think that adding one > back is useful? I don't follow your logic, sorry. No, I'm saying I have multiple other ways to accomplish the same goal, why add another switch to get left in the wrong position, behind the door, where it's not visible, and it's not "fixable" after you lock the door and leave the site? (Yeah yeah, no big deal -- go back in and flip it. I know. Just sayin'.) >> Non Standard... ?? Wait, the repeater came from the factory >> with a Repeat Disable switch. That card was removed, so we >> reinstated the switch on a card that 99% of repeaters that use a >> modern controller use (The 10V Reg Card). We simply reinstated the >> Standard functionality back into the repeater. We already did that when we added the controller. :-) Just because it uses DTMF doesn't mean it's not "easy". > If the repeater was modified to the point of removal of the card > that had the Repeat Disable switch, anyone working on the repeater > can no longer follow the LBI exclusively anymore. That person is > going to have to know enough about the installation to figure out a > third party controller, so I don't think that a switch that is > plainly labeled "PTT Disable" is going to be that difficult for them > to figure out. If is it, they have no business working on the > repeater. Heh... very true, that. But your objections to all the other ways to disable the transmitter and then do the tests needed, without even having to pull the RF cable off, don't seem to hold water. They're all valid ways to keep a MASTR II station from transmitting, and anyone working on one knows all of them -- other than perhaps the codes for the off-board repeater controller. If there's reason to put a switch in the station, it's just as easy to drill a hole in the controller and mount the switch in the controller, wired to a logic input, right? A drill and 2 minutes of soldering, and that'd be done... neither is "cleaner" than the other, if the hole is drilled in the right place in the faceplate of the controller and the right kind of push-button switch is used. It'd look "factory" too... and would have to be labeled just like the M2 mod switch would. (I'm NOT advocating that, I'm just making the point -- I don't hack on either the station OR the controller... stock is just fine and follows the KISS principal. A book with the control codes in the locked rack cabinet for the controller takes care of the whole problem for a newbie needing to know how to disable the repeater, without making modifications to either piece of gear.) Heh, I'm having funny visions of hanging one of those data center "Emergency Power Off" guarded "big red button" switches on the wall and wiring it up to kill all the transmitters on all the repeaters at a site! That would be taking this whole "we need a transmitter disable switch" to a rediculous extreme... but it would look damn cool! Don't you think? (GRIN!!!!) Maybe set off some flashing strobe lights and an alarm bell with a hidden reset switch somewhere too? I love it! (p.s. Those EPO switches cause more unnecessary down-time in data centers, the world over, than they save lives or equipment -- but when you really need them, you really need them. I know one data center where the thing is useless because they had so many false trips, they put a PADLOCK on the cover. Sad. Now it's completely worthless unless you pick up a chair or have a baseball bat handy to smash the cover and push the EPO button! I guess their fire inspector looks the other way. Not right.) >> All tests including desense tests can be done without ever touching >> the >> RF cabling (if that's the complaint) for the TX side of the radio. >> Easily. I described exactly how one could do it. > > Jerk out a card? Yuck.... It's certainly what a connectorized control shelf is designed for, the cards are removable after all. But agreed, not my first choice. > Pull off the Power Connector to the exciter? Yuck.... Never championed or mentioned that one. That's gross. 100% agreed! > Disable the PTT with the repeater controller? Yuck.... You paid good money for the thing, why not use it? Good lord. Is it THAT hard? > Pull off the exciter RF connector? I don't think so. Still not sure why this is a problem. I understand why you don't like it when it's transmitting, but pulled when it's not, it's by far the most effective way to put an "air gap" between the exciter and the PA -- you know damn good and well it isn't going to transmit and bite you if that cable's pulled off! And if "exercising" the connector breaks it either internally or externally, the stupid thing needed to be replaced anyway. It shouldn't be so fragile. And if it is, it shouldn't be in repeater service anyway. Heck, one could argue that pulling them once in a while will prevent oxidation buildup from the wiping action, lets you feel if the RCA is still tight and inspect it visually, and just in general know it's on right before you close up the drawer. You really should be checking that anyway -- opening the drawer and the resulting "turning" action of the RCA as the drawer opens, can work the RCA loose anyway -- each time you close the drawer -- so it's not like you don't have to touch it anyway, at least once in a while. > Please quantify how any of these above, or any other that you can > think of, are better in any way than a simple switch. The simplest switch is the power supply Off switch. To set up for a desense test, you don't need to touch the TX RF cables at all, and once you have your weak signal injection setup done on the RX side, you're ready to roll. CTCSS mode, weak signal from the generator without CTCSS, switch the speaker on, set it to Receiver 1, push the Remote PTT on the 10V regulator to switch the TX on and off. Hear more noise? Ya got desense and you need to fix it. Piece of cake. No modifications or switches required. You don't even HAVE to turn the repeater off, really. > Your turn..... It's fun to talk about it. I hope folks don't think this is a "debate". I like seeing what other's thoughts are. But I'm really unlikely to change my mind on this one. We all have our vices. (GRIN) Hams are more than welcome to do whatever they like to their rigs, of course -- that's part of the fun. I like stock... it works the same way (other than the off-board controller) as it worked in commercial, public safety, government, or whatever "work" it did prior to its ham life -- and most of them worked that way for 20 years... why mess with success? KISS. (Actually that should read KIS... I'd never call anyone here 'stupid'... it's just the expression wouldn't make sense to anyone reading it as that!) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
