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[editorial note: It seems that Wesley's mail program has added quotation marks ( > ) on his own replies. It also seems to be "chopping up" my replies to him that he is answering. I tried to use my program "Stripmail" to fix these things, but to do it properly would take way too long, so I left it as is, and ask the reader to be careful in reading so as to properly attribute each reply to the proper author. In this vein I will attempt to at least space between replies to make it a bit easier to accomplish this.] On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 13:47:56 +1200, you wrote: >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > >Quoting Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >> ANNOUNCEMENT S and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml >> |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >> >> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:00:17 +1200, you wrote: >> >> ><snip> >> > >> >Well, this is something I've believed for a long time. But then, the >= >> same is >> >true of Palestinians, whoever. You can't make such a claim on behalf >> of= >> one set >> >of people and then deny it to the rest. >>>> The difference is, the Arabs _weren't_ slated for genocide, and if >they >> = >> had been, already have many "homelands" to escape to. There, is, once >= >> again the simple question of justice. >Which as I have pointed out time and time again, cannot be satisfied for >case X >by making individuals Y and Z responsible for something for which they >> were not >> responsible, namely case X. Or do you seriously expect me to believe, >> for >> example, that the genocide of countless of the First Nations in America >> was a >> satisfactory and just response to the sufferings of the American >> immigrants (in >> their original European homelands) who displaced them? That is what >> that >> transfers to, ditto Australia (The convicts, many unjustly imprisoned >> for minor >> offenses), ... Of course not. The European's genocide of the Native Americans, north and south is typical of colonialist attitudes towards "savages", and cannot be accepted in any way. In fact, if I had my way Aboriginal peoples' the world over would have reparations of one sort or another made to them as the only way to repay them, however inadequate. Of course I rarely get my way. I still hold that the Middle East situation is NOT comparable to any other like event in history, and hopefully will not be in the future either. I also still hold that the inordinate amount of attention paid to the Mid-East situation has it's basis in anti-Semitism, for there are many worse things going on in the world that have much less coverage. >> <snip> >> > I lived >> > >with my parents in the back-blocks of Papua New Guinea before = >> > Independence with >> > >almost _no_ armed forces presence - but then the locals knew we >> weren't >> > = >> > planning >> > >on taking their land, and we also provided medical supplies. >> > The fact that the settlers are bolstered by the armed forces (a >> somewhat >> > = >> > debatable fact anyway, it seems to me that the settlers are >> increasingly >> > = >> > responsible for their own defense) is a necessary evil, because the = >> > Palestinians waste no opportunity to kill them. >> Your media has been lying to you. Count the number of casualties on both >> sides, >> Israel and Palestine, consider who's got the strongest military, >> consider how >> many of those killed in the Palestinian Territories are civilians, and >> then >> restate your case. Of course "my" media has been lying to me, it seems to cause me to disagree with you. That being said, sarcastically, I am fully aware that the deaths are numbered more on the Palestinian side than on the Israeli. I also believe that this is so because it is a long standing Israeli policy to at least attempt to make terrorist attacks against them, shall we say, unpalatable by striking back twice as hard. And the Israeli forces are much stronger than the Palestinians are at this time, but were not always so. Also, the Palestinians are funded and backed, if not officially, by Arab governments, which when combined at least equal Israel in force, and severely outnumber them in troop strength. >> And, how did the "locals >> > = >> > (know) we weren't planning on taking their land"? >> >> Because we told them. Because they had learnt they could trust us. >> Because we >> didn't say one thing and do another. Unbelievable. So they simply _believed_ you, eh? Believe it or not, promises were made (and kept!) to the existing Arab population pre-1948, (and once again much of Israeli land was purchased at inflated prices from it's Arab owners), but that didn't seem to make much difference to those Arab leaders who just didn't want the Jews in their midst. You seem to imply that the Arabs of the area shouldn't have been asked to assimilate into a Jewish (secular, mind you) state, or move into other Arab countries surrounding them, where they might have been comfortable, and by now well established, but the Jews should be willing to be moved wherever, or stay where they had been slated for extermination. Goose and gander. >> And why do you think >> > = >> > the Arabs "know" that Israel does want to "take" their land = >> http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html >> In rare situations, Ben-Gurion EMPATHIZED with the Palestinian people. >> He stated >> in a letter to Moshe Sharett in 1937: >> >> "Were I an Arab, and Arab with nationalist political consciousness . . . >> I would >> rise up against an immigration liable in the future to hand the country >> and all >> of its [Palestinian] Arab inhabitants over to Jewish rule. What >> [Palestinian] >> Arab cannot do his math and understand what [Jewish] immigration at the >> rate of >> 60,000 a year means a Jewish state in all of Palestine." (Shabtai >> Teveth, p. >> 171-172) Hmmm... 1937, when the Jewish population of Europe was still close to 20 million, and the Holocaust had not fully occurred by then. By 1948, however that was not true. Wesley, I will ask this question again, as I have asked you and countless others without adequate response, What would you have Israel (and by extension, the Jews) do? Should they simply lie down and allow their complete extermination? Or should they, like many others the world over and throughout history do what they can and must to ensure their _own_ survival? And in my opinion, Israel, Sharon's government notwithstanding, has done what they could with much humanity, and with as much compassion as possible to try and avert Arab civilian casualties, with exceptions, of course, to do just that: ensure their very survival. >> > (notwithstanding the argument that they already have "taken" some of >> it, >> > = >> > although through legitimate means such as purchase)? >> >> And massacre? And forced eviction? How is that - Deir Yassin, Ramle, etc >> - a >> legitimate form of land alienation, ever since the Nuremburg Trials? Ah, the old Deir Yassin argument. Here is a link to a source that refutes the "massacre" argument, in my mind quite successfully. A much shorter treatise is linked after that refuting any massacres at Lod and Ramala: http://www.zoa.org/pubs/DeirYassin.htm http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_lod_ramle.php >> And not only has = >> > Israel historically and recently provided medical supplies for the = >> > Palestinians, their _sworn enemy_, they, as Donella has pointed out, >> and >> > = >> > I have read on the 'Net and in local papers, donated _organs_ to >> those >> > = >> > Palestinians who needed them by the very victims of their terror! >> Even >> > on= >> > the battlefield Israeli doctors have saved Palestinian lives without >> = >> > prejudice. Do you think the Palestinians would do the same? >> >> Yes. The sad fact is that your local media's only passing on the Israeli >> side >> of events. >> >http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfaarchive/2000_2009/2000/12/Meeting%20Between%20the%20Palestinian%20Red%20Crescent%20Socie This link more or less bolsters my argument, although it does show that the Red Crescent is working with Magen David Adom to attempt to stop attacks on medical vehicles. A cynic, however might say that the Red Crescent only wishes to have the attacks against their ambulances cease so that the transport of terrorist fighters and military materiel can continue to be transported in said ambulances. I am not that cynical however, and will allow you to cite ANY source that shows the reverse of what Israeli's have done and are doing to assist Palestinians medically, which the above link does not do. Also, I didn't realize that the 'Net was my "local media." >> <snip> >> > Is that why Israel is now developing a new desalination plant to >> > provide= >> > water to the "Occupied Territories"? >> Yes - that way they can continue taking the water from the Palestinian >> hill-country watershed, and overcharge the Palestinians for drinking >> water -I >> mean, you didn't happen to read the caveats in the newscientist article, >> did >> you? At that price and complexity, it's very much buying a pig in a poke >> - it >> would cost a h&lluva lot less for Israel to test it out first on Tel >> Aviv, or >> Jaffa, and iron out the bugs first - but this has all the hallmarks of >> a >> propaganda exercise, and it still leaves the veto of that entire water >> supply in >> Israel's hands. Come on, puleeeeze - if the Israelis weren't Jewish thus >> of >> your ethnicity, would you believe they were doing this out of the >> goodness of >> their hearts? So, you ARE that cynical! Not only that but you once again don't consider the fact that if the millions/billions that have flowed into the Territories were used for humanitarian purposes instead of to fund attacks against Israel, the Palestinians might have no NEED for Israel's desalinization plant, therefore making your "propaganda" argument moot. Oh, and are you implying that I am RACIST in my defense of Israel, Wesley, by attempting to claim that it is my "ethnicity" (which, btw, is Polish, German and Russian. My _religious_ roots are however, Jewish) which causes me to defend Israel??! This is extremely disappointing, and I would have thought much more of you than that, and if it is so that you feel this way I demand a retraction and apology, for, once again it is MY sense of Justice that causes me to defend Israel, and my roots as a Jew that give me the disdain I feel when I see Israel do things that ARE wrong! And I also _admit_ when I see Israel doing things that are wrong, but I have yet to see you admit when Arabs/Palestinians do the same, such as bombing shops and restaurants, or gunning down women and children in their homes. Or perhaps it is your ethnicity that provides you with the thought that the Jews are always to blame. --------------------------------- "A lie can go halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on." [Mark Twain] --------------------------------- Scott All that is necessary for Evil to triumph, is for good people to do nothing. --- / o o \ PNEWS Topic Specific Portals (Vortals) ===OO=====OO================================================http://pnews.org/vortal/ New World disOrder and Myth Busters http://g0lem.net/vortal/ Insane Planet and Wacko World http://g0lem.net/portal/ Bad-Ass Truth and TheGolemsPortal http://pnews.org/portal/ Naked Truth and PNEWS Portal ============================================================ \_/ \_/
