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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [RHETORIC] Kersting attacks peace organizations - Why pick on
them?
Why does Kersting attack Tikkun and A.N.S.W.E.R? Is this purely
anti-Israel or is it purely pro-Arab? Is Kersting a progressive with
progressive, egalitarian ideals or is that a cover for another (hidden)
more sinister agenda by David Kersting?
The essay which was published on the "March to Justice" website opposes a
two-state solution. It implies the two-state approach is a Zionist
construct. While we are looking for solutions, it does no good to label
possibilities for solution as "Zionist" in order to discredit those
potential solutions. To discredit them requires more than name calling. It
requires a better analysis.
Secondly, I'm not sure why Hersh keeps posting here in RHETORIC (the
discussion forum for PNEWS-L) what he does here about Kersting.
Obviously he has problems with him which cannot be resolved in the forum
where they both participate and should not be posting someone else's words
here (without their authorization) - that is, portions (out of context)
thereof. I'm not sure of the context (?) nor do I think is everyone else
and I admit to not reading the entire screed by Hersh because I am simply
not interested in an attack on someone who isn't here to defend himself.
I think the topics should be addressed, not the individuals. I think
Michael Hersh is a lawyer so he should know that. I would rather see the
topic conceptualized (perhaps in TheGolems Wiki (http://g0lem.net/PhpWiki/
or in RHETORIC and elaborated.) Statements without analysis do not explain
nor prove anything. It is a better venue because here it becomes too
fragmented for anyone to follow the purpose or meaning when parts of it
are quoted and parts of it intentionally ommitted. Let us take this
discussion to the CategoryAntiSemitism either as a new essay for which I
can designate a discussion page or as discussion of what is already there.
Also as to a two-state solution, I may have more to agree with Kersting
than I would with Michael and have said so before but perhaps for
different reasons?. My preference has always been the single-state
approach because two states would be infinitely unfair and a great risk
for Jews and for Palestinians. I believe one single state is _perhaps_ the
only viable, long term solution considering (1) the shortage of resources
for Arabs/Palestinians in the territories (unless I am proven wrong?) and
(2) a democracy can be expanded to include everyone in the region -- with
a Constitution and a Bill of Rights to protect the rights, privileges, and
provide for the responsibilities of all who live there. Democracy is a
civilized approach. I think the Israelis might be ready for it, but I do
not think the Arabs in the region would be, as evidenced by past behavior
and statements -- but I might be wrong about that?
Here is the forwarded message, posted to RHETORIC by Leslie Lowe:
(quote)
Whether anyone believe my sincerity or not is up to them, I speak as my
conscience dictates I should. I have no Palestinian friends that I share
my thoughts with, but many Jewish friends that I hold dear and trust as
much as with any of my family. In fact the Godfather of one of my sons
happen to be Jewish, chosen from many others, so I hope that gives an
insight and tell something of my rabid anti-semitism.
On the subject of racism, how many were in South Africa in the early 1950s
at the height of apartheid? how many experienced and saw the ugly face of
racism? if so, did one see and experience the humiliation and degradation
of fellow human beings? I did, I did.
My fellow men, anyone that lay claim to a religious teaching and the
rights of man to live with their families free from fear and destitution,
cannot but deplore what the Palestinians have been subjected to these past
decades. Whatever yardstick one may choose to measure and justify this
ongoing atrocities inflicted on the Palestinians, I can arrive but at one
conclusion; it is as wrong as wrong can be.
I have no knowledge of Mr. David Kersting's views on other subjects, but
on this particular writing of the article below in which he has detailed
many points much better than I could, I wholeheartedly agrees with him and
have no hesitation in saying so. .Now bring on the attacks and supress my
voice, in keeping with the main Medias that gives only one point of view.
Leslie Lowe
(end quote)
He was responding to Mike Hersh:
Mike Hersh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
(quote)
Kersting attacks peace organizations - "Peace Now," Tikkkun [sic],
A.N.S.W.E.R., etc."
Here again is Kersting attacking those who work for peace, in his
own unaltered words, from "Deception or Denial" By David Kersting:
(end quote)
------
(quote from Kersting)
Believers in the Zionist "peace" organizations, such as "Peace Now,"
Tikkkun, A.N.S.W.E.R., etc. might convince themselves that they are
sincere, but only if they can excuse "indignant" violence and
slander, disrupting "peace and justice" meetings in key moments
of "upset" - quashing normal questions about the inadmissibility of
racism, as if reason had collapsed into a license for general rancor
the moment someone said "violent racism."
The time-honored arguments, which elicit those violent "upsets,"
merely touch (and draw forth) the racist violence at the heart of
the "two-state" concept. Any belief that such a concept can bring
peace depends on those "upsets" which suppress egalitarian
principles, in the key moments. This is the process that so
mysteriously fails to bring peace.
Those doing the suppressing might or might not be intentional
Zionist moles: a system that encourages denial produces lots of
neurotic "progressives," who may think they believe in ethnic
equality, even though they're "not ready to give up the idea of
a 'Jewish state.'" That neurotic hypocrisy is propagated quite
intentionally, by the "two-state" deception, in official Zionist
circles, such as Tikkkun - and by any number of moles, who, by
definition, we do not suspect. Yet there is no need to distinguish
between the motives of intentional Zionist deceivers and neurotic,
demi-Zionist deniers.
Complete screed:
http://www.marchforjustice.com/10.10.03.Deception.php
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Media Watch project - http://democrats.com/media
MikeHersh.com - http://www.mikehersh.com
BushOccupation.com - http://www.bushoccupation.com
Speak Out! Beat Bush! - http://www.cafeshops.com/antibush04
(END)
NOW MY TURN:
NOTE from Hank Roth: I followed the above link to March for Justice and I
did not disagree with general crux the Kersting's essay but I would
suggest there should be some qualifying commentary with regard to his
conclusions. Are these honest conclusions which is based on an honest and
realistic analysis or a view that is agenda driven? Certainly, I also MUST
wonder about any hidden agenda since the source is: Server Central Jordan
(IP 66.225.225.56)
I do not believe separating the region into two states leads to ethnic
cleansing by the Jews, but it has led to ethnic cleansing by the Arabs who
do not want Jewish settlement in the Arab held territories. They do not
want Jews living in Jordan (none do), nor in Saudi Arabia (where it is not
legal to live if one is a Jew), nor in other states in the region where
the Jews have been expelled which is real ethnic cleansing. Whereas in
Israel Arabs and Jews do live side by side. Mr. Kersting confuses the
notion of cleansing for obvious reasons. At that point in the essay I felt
as if I was being conned because it was simply not true. So the only point
I found where I agreed with David Kersting was about whether or not it
should be one state or two. And if the Arabs continue to keep alive
similar views as David Kersting does, there would not be any opportunity
or possibility for co-existing in one state -- as ideal as that condition
might be.
As for racism, there has been far more evidence of that from
"Palestinians" than I have seen coming from all, but the most extreme,
religious Jewish segment (which is a very small component). There is
greater rights accorded minorities in Israel than any Arab state. That is
a fact. But religous fanaticism is everyone's enemy.
HANK
(I suggest that this topic be expanded and moved to the Wiki)
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