Not a great deal of difference between these entities, IMHO.
Jim
James P. Cline
Materials Measurement Science Division National Institute of Standards
and Technology
100 Bureau Dr. stop 8520 [ B113 / Bldg 217 ]
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8523 USA
jcl...@nist.gov
(301) 975 5793
FAX (301) 975 5334
From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr [mailto:rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr] On
Behalf Of Darren Broom
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:17 AM
To: Young Lindsay Kay; rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
On a related note, with regard to accessing Facebook at work, I
generally only use it to keep in touch with friends; and I try to
avoid mixing the two. I'm sure I'm not alone in doing this.
For work-related activities, etc, I tend to use LinkedIn.
Best regards,
Darren
-----Original Message-----
From: lindsay.yo...@rockets.utoledo.edu
Sent: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 14:40:31 +0000
To: rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
As one of the younger members of the list, I would like to add a few
points.
I may never have found this list on my own if my advisor was not kind
enough to point it out to me. I have never seen a mailing list before
in my life :) To that end social media outlets may be helpful for
newcomers. But I am very happy to be a member and will gladly
learn/join whatever format is chosen. So many people helped me get to
where I am today by kindly answering my basic questions that I feel
obligated to do the same for other newcomers.
I strongly believe in open-mindedness toward the new. Regardless, I
think that social media may be most useful for publicity and outreach
if we wish to seek out new members, but I don't think social media
formats are friendly to discussion. Facebook's format, for example,
would not allow for easy archiving of replies and they would easily
become buried as time passed. Another problem with social media is
that for those who are at work or school, being seen on facebook or
other social media may be forbidden if not frowned upon, even if they were
being honestly productive.
I agree that fewer streams of consciousness are preferable. If we wish
to move at all, I propose that a forum format may be the best for
consideration?
______________________________________________________________________
______
From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr <rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr> on behalf
of Daxu Liu <daxu...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 9:06 AM
To: Leopoldo Suescun; rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
Dear prof. Suescun,
I agree with you, and I have written to you some times ago. You do be
an enthusiastic and generous man. Thank you very much!
Yes, many beginners do ask lots of basic points on crystallography and
some basic steps on how to use some refinement programmes, and I was one of
them.
However, someone has no choice to ask someone for help because he/she
maybe study oneself, and crystallography is not his/her major. I was
crazy on the Rietveld method in the past just for the interest, and I
had to write to some people for help because I can not solve some
problems even after I searched the answers in Google or other search
engines. I am very appreciated for those people who helped me like you
and Dr. Toby, Brian H., and Dr. Rodriguez-Carvajal, J. and other respectable
and kind people.
I have studied the Rietveld method for eight years myself through the
web and reading some books, and I have published few papers on it,
which are colsely related to my research areas.
In a word, I feel, if you know about it and have spare time, it will
be possible to encourage and help someone greatly when you answer his
or her some basic questions (maybe stupied questions,:) ).
Best regards, Daxu
______________________________________________________________________
______
From: Leopoldo Suescun <leopo...@fq.edu.uy>
To: "rietveld_l@ill.fr" <rietveld_l@ill.fr>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
Dear Colleagues,
IMHO the Rietveld List is for rather advanced students and scientists
that are rather fanatic, not for the kind of beginners that may look
for assistance in facebook.
One of such students will find our discussions impossible to
understand at minimum if not simply crazy, full of self-references,
old discussions and rivalries. We have even read some rude replies to
students whose knowledge was evidently far below the minimum required
to perform a meaningful refinement, or question to the list. So maybe
it would not be advisable for a very young and untrained student to
join our list and ask very basic questions.
I think the facebook page will reach to other public that will never
come to us on a first basis and probably shouldn?t, but that will
eventually be ready for the list after some time.
One point in favor of the facebook discussion group or other social
media channels is that all of our Universities and Institutes(*see
below) are on Facebook/Twitter/RG, etc, and more and more "younger"
and not quite colleagues are using them too, for dissemination of
careers, teaching programs, events, job advertising, and even
knowledge, so denying that Facebook, Twitter, Research Gate, etc. may
be of help to disseminate the Rietveld Method in particular and
knowledge in general is like denying reality.
I?m not going to judge if the for-profit, business oriented attitude
of the companies that manage these social networks is favorable for
spreading science or not (probably not), but it may be a good idea
that we use the networks to allow younger colleagues becoming
crystallographers to learn the science from scientists and eventually
lead them to the Rietveld List when they have enough knowledge to ask
meaningful questions.
Actually the IUCr (our IUCr) is in Facebook and I have participated in
discussion where it is is looking for ways to spread the knowledge by
all possible means, so I bet authorities will salute this move towards
modern (not necessarily better, I agree) tools.
As much as I have replied to crystallography questions in this list
and Research Gate I?ll do the same on Facebook, Twitter or whatever
other forum I?m at, and will suggest students seeking for deeper
understanding to walk the way by themselves reading books, papers and
why not the Rietveld Mailing Archive, and eventually seeking support
from well trained scientists in the Rietveld List. And I foresee many
links in Facebook to the rietveld_list_archives for everyone to use
this accumulated knowledge, while Mark Zuckerberg tries to sell them
X-ray instruments, or X-files DVDs or X-plane tickets or whatever the
automatic software that drops advertisement in our screen understands of what
we talk about...
With best regards,
Leo
* List of important labs and universities I found in Facebook in 1
minute
search:
https://www.facebook.com/iucr.org?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/cnrs.fr?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Institut-Laue-Langevin-ILL/148452651846
298?f
ref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/DESY/103119693061304?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/MITnews?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/imperialcollegelondon?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/usnistgov?fref=ts
need more?
2015-06-10 16:29 GMT-03:00 AICr2014 <cristalogra...@fq.edu.uy>:
Dear Colleagues,
IMHO the Rietveld List is for rather advanced students and scientists
that are rather fanatic, not for the kind of beginners that may look
for assistance in facebook.
One of such students will find our discussions impossible to
understand at minimum if not simply crazy, full of self-references,
old discussions and rivalries. We have even read some rude replies to
students whose knowledge was evidently far below the minimum required
to perform a meaningful refinement, or question to the list. So maybe
it would not be advisable for a very young and untrained student to
join our list and ask very basic questions.
I think the facebook page will reach to other public that will never
come to us on a first basis and probably shouldn?t, but that will
eventually be ready for the list after some time.
One point in favor of the facebook discussion group or other social
media channels is that all of our Universities and Institutes(*see
below) are on Facebook/Twitter/RG, etc, and more and more "younger"
and not quite colleagues are using them too, for dissemination of
careers, teaching programs, events, job advertising, and even
knowledge, so denying that Facebook, Twitter, Research Gate, etc. may
be of help to disseminate the Rietveld Method in particular and
knowledge in general is like denying reality.
I?m not going to judge if the for-profit, business oriented attitude
of the companies that manage these social networks is favorable for
spreading science or not (probably not), but it may be a good idea
that we use the networks to allow younger colleagues becoming
crystallographers to learn the science from scientists and eventually
lead them to the Rietveld List when they have enough knowledge to ask
meaningful questions.
Actually the IUCr (our IUCr) is in Facebook and I have participated in
discussion where it is is looking for ways to spread the knowledge by
all possible means, so I bet authorities will salute this move towards
modern (not necessarily better, I agree) tools.
As much as I have replied to crystallography questions in this list
and Research Gate I?ll do the same on Facebook, Twitter or whatever
other forum I?m at, and will suggest students seeking for deeper
understanding to walk the way by themselves reading books, papers and
why not the Rietveld Mailing Archive, and eventually seeking support
from well trained scientists in the Rietveld List. And I foresee many
links in Facebook to the rietveld_list_archives for everyone to use
this accumulated knowledge, while Mark Zuckerberg tries to sell them
X-ray instruments, or X-files DVDs or X-plane tickets or whatever the
automatic software that drops advertisement in our screen understands of what
we talk about...
With best regards,
Leo
* List of important labs and universities I found in Facebook in 1
minute
search:
https://www.facebook.com/iucr.org?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/cnrs.fr?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Institut-Laue-Langevin-ILL/148452651846
298?f
ref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/pages/DESY/103119693061304?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/MITnews?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/imperialcollegelondon?fref=ts
need more?
--
Enviado desde mi m?vil.
Prof. Dr. Leopoldo Suescun
Cryssmat-Lab/DETEMA, Facultad de Qu?mica, Universidad de la
Rep?blica, Montevideo, Uruguay.
El jun 9, 2015 4:15 AM, "Radovan Cerny" <radovan.ce...@unige.ch> escribi?:
Too many channels = crystallographer's death (freely translated from
an old proverb "Too many hunters= rabbit's death).
Rather to express my opinion that if you have too many options where
to look for an info, you spend too much time before you find it.
Why the troglodytes should learn Facebook? Why do not the younger and
more up-to-date researcher use the email?
Radovan Cerny
Laboratoire de Cristallographie, DQMP
Universit? de Gen?ve
24, quai Ernest-Ansermet
CH-1211 Geneva 4, Switzerland
Phone : [+[41] 22] 37 964 50, FAX : [+[41] 22] 37 961 08 mailto :
radovan.ce...@unige.ch
URL : http://www.unige.ch/sciences/crystal/cerny/rcerny.htm
-----Message d'origine-----
De : rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr [mailto:rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr] De
la part de LUIS MARIA RODRIGUEZ LORENZO Envoy? : mardi 9 juin 2015
08:15 ? : rietveld_l@ill.fr Objet : Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion
Group on Facebook
hehe, well played Lubo. People can define themselves as they wish, the
problem is the impression we produce in others with our self-definitions.
still the more channels people have to reach information , the best,
and as someone says before, if it does not work it will fade out with no damage.
Quoting Lubomir Smrcok <uachs...@savba.sk>:
Dear Luis,
I always find weird and sort of funny when someone cannot accept
that some people could call themselves troglodites meaning that they
are not very enthusiastic about ALL what other people call new and
progressive or even an innovation. This is how I understand Larry's
comment.
Personally, though I am younger than him I do not feel like a
second-rate human being or depleted of any important scientific
information when I completely ignore facebook and its clones. This
way of communication or, better, its information contents, strongly
resembles that described in Brave New World by A.Huxley. Though
published in 1932, it has been somehow ahead of the times.
A word of warning for facebookers : be careful, this is a book
(check the word with any good on-line service). Fortunately, it is
offered also for Kindle so no worry for being seen with a pretty
thick piece of paper.
Best,
Lubo
On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, LUIS MARIA RODRIGUEZ LORENZO wrote:
Dear all,
Although not an active player on this list, except maybe in my
early days in late 90,s,(science , took me in a different
direction) I still keep track of what is happening in "the
Refinement world" and i would like to add my thoughts on this non
technical matter.
The generation of people called millennials and young scientists
among them, get inform through facebook and similar. That link them
to several sources of information without attaching them to one
single source .
A facebook page related and linked to this discussion group could
be the gate to new researchers (students) to this page and have a
positive influence on the size of this community and their access
to the very specific questions and knowledge that are usually
discussed here. Their alternative can be the use of the potent
available software to have results without guidance (e.g after , no
sensible responses have been obtained through linkedyn or research
gate, to name some, because nobody with the right expertise is
there). It does not have to be a different or parallel discussion
group, and it does not imply that you have to join or use any new
group. it is most likely to have a positive effect or maybe just
null in the worst scenario.
In a more personal opinion , i always find weird and sort of funny,
when people, whose work is to develop and spread knowledge, is
proud to be a "troglodite" and do not dare to experience innovation.
Facebook does not change the way Science "should" be done but it
may change the way of communicating .
Please dont take offence for my last comment , that is out of my purpose.
Best regards
Luis
Quoting Reinhard Kleeberg <kleeb...@mineral.tu-freiberg.de>:
To be honest, I can't imagine that crystallographic knowledge can
be effectively transmitted via facebook. Probably one could safe
time by reading some basic textbooks instead of "liking" and "following".
The same holds for other "asocial" (Lubo, I like this
statement!) networks like researchgate, what also waste the time
even of uninvolved people by spamming, just for generating profits
by the companies.
The central points have already been fixed by Alan:
The advantage of the Rietveld mailing list is that contributions
aren't anonymous, it is not commercial and no use is made of users'
information, publicity is limited, and there is a structured
archive of discussion that is open to all, even those who don't have an account.
This is like science should be. Alan, thank you very much for all
your altruistic efforts with the list!
Greetings
Reinhard
Am 08/06/2015 um 14:00 schrieb Davide Levy:
I want say something more about my decision to open the group in FB.
There is many people the use the Rietveld method as a magic black box:
insert the data, read the cif of the phase and obtain the results.
Then they say "twenty-one" and "forty-one" when they see a
symmetry group!
Maybe a POP-group in FB can teach more about crystallography to a
larger group of scientist!
this is my opinion.
Davide
-----Original Message-----
From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr
[mailto:rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr] On Behalf Of Lubomir Smrcok
Sent: 08 June, 2015 2:49 PM
To: Alan Hewat
Cc: rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook
Dear Alan,
There are plenty of people who call usage of so-called social
networks (they are, in fact, very asocial) "a progress". I would
suggest to consider De gustibus non est disputandum, but also Duo
cum faciunt idem, non est idem.
Although I am not member of any of those asocial nets and do not
plan to be, I sometimes think of the end of such services like
Gopher. Maybe we have around a generation, who prefers to share
instead of to search, think & write. What a prefect opportunity
for commercial companies :-)
Best,
Lubo
On Mon, 8 Jun 2015, Alan Hewat wrote:
I can understand that people have different ideas about the
ideal format for discussion, and for some of us email may seem a
little "old fashioned". I suppose we could also use Twitter or
any of the other social chattering forums. But multiple groups
on the same subject disperses the available information, and it
would be good to have some kind of consensus rather than individual initiatives.
The advantage of the Rietveld mailing list is that contributions
aren't anonymous, it is not commercial and no use is made of users'
information, publicity is limited, and there is a structured
archive of discussion that is open to all, even those who don't
have
an account.
I myself simply inherited the list, but think it worth
maintaining, and would discourage members from posting to
multiple groups on the same subject.
Alan. (What, me worry ? :-)
On 8 June 2015 at 09:24, davide levy <davide.lev...@gmail.com> wrote:
Good Morning
I created the Powder Diffraction Discussion Group on Facebook,
to speak about powder diffraction, Rietveld etc.. open for all
use powder diffraction.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1087352967946225/
Davide
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list
<alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg:
HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list
archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
______________________________________________
Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE
<alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> +33.476.98.41.68
http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat
______________________________________________
--
TU Bergakademie Freiberg
Dr. R. Kleeberg
Mineralogisches Labor
Brennhausgasse 14
D-09596 Freiberg
Tel. ++49 (0) 3731-39-3244
Fax. ++49 (0) 3731-39-3129
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list
<alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg:
HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is
on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--
Dr. Leopoldo Suescun
Prof. Agr (Assoc. Prof.) de F?sica Tel: (+598) 29290705/29249859
Cryssmat-Lab./C?tedra de Fisica/DETEMA Fax: (+598) 29241906*
Facultad de Quimica, Universidad de la Republica. Montevideo, Uruguay
Ahora la cristalograf?a importa m?s (www.iucr.org) Crystallography Matters more.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list
<alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg:
HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is
on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
