Eckhard Lehmann wrote:

> no, I haven't got anything ready - not much time lately. 

Neither have I:-(

> Just some
> thoughts...

> I checked out the code from subversion once, but got massive trouble
> with the autoconf thing. I was not able to run ./genconf.sh, autoconf
> and make failed too... Maybe I did something wrong with my macros :-(.
> Anyway I think this should be refactored completely. Best thing is maybe
> to make it TEA compliant and add some macros for finding the right
> apache configurations?

I think what we have in there is basically correct.  TEA is kind of
crappy in my opinion - the rest of the world seems to use the full auto*
group of tools rather than just TEA, and TEA is this low-level mess in
any case, not something high level like apxs or similar tools (Ruby and
Python both have ways of compiling stuff automagically IIRC).

> The API changes in Apache can make a grown man cry - complete changes
> from 1.3 to 2.0, another change from 2.0 to 2.2... nothing really
> documented; pure chaos. You really learn to appreciate the documentation
> and consistency of Tcl here. It might be more appropriate to have
> completely different versions of Rivet for the different Apache
> versions? At least two different versions for Apache 1.x and Apache 2.x?

I think that the work we did to separate out the part that talks with
the web server (mod_rivet.c and TclWebapache.c) is sufficient to isolate
the core (rivetCore.c) - if it's not, we should look at changing it.
The idea is that Rivet should be able to run in different environments.
 You might look at how Websh does things - it compiles for Apache 1, 2,
and also CGI (a standalone executable).

That said, yeah, Apache 2 is completely different (look up "second
system effect") and it's not an easy undertaking.  It is gradually
replacing Apache 1.3 installations, though, and in some ways it is a bit
nicer.

> Those autoconf issues are worst and I think it has to be decided and
> done first. It is no fun to spent more time on fixing silly m4 macros
> than on bugfixing the program itself.

Yes, I realize that... I suggested to the Tcl folks years ago that they
provide build support tools of some sort, but it hasn't happened.  The
existing system is the result of a lot of effort on my part to learn and
beat the auto* tools into place, with some help from Karl et al.

> If you agree, I put the apache-2 stuff together in a TEA compliant
> module and add appropriate macros for apache headers and libs. In my
> opinion it doesn't make sense to continue working on the module before
> this is sorted out and ready to go. Still you might have better ideas?

Well, if it helps you to work on it, I guess we could create a
subdirectory or something where you basically have total control, so
that you can at least get the C hacking done.  Then we could worry about
proper auto* support later.  I know quite well that C hacking is fun,
whereas auto* hacking is a soul-draining exercize in frustration:-)

> For the module itself, I need a deeper understanding of what is going on
> in Apache during request processing. It is not done right at the moment,
> e.g. the handlers and mime type configurations from the config file are
> completely ignored.  I think the module is not hooked in at the right
> position, or something is missing...

There are apache lists where you can ask after these kinds of things, as
well as IRC channels on irc.freenode.net that sometimes have people who
know a thing or two.

> Another issue we should discuss is, whether we should built the Tcl
> interpreter into the module and thus get around external dependencies.
> mod_tcl is doing it that way, AFAIK, and Tcl is predestinated for those
> kind of things. It would make things much easier in the long term,
> especially for admins and users.

It should be possible but not the default.  On a modern system like
Debian, Tcl is a shared library in order that it *be* shared.  It's a
better way of doing things in terms of resources.

> I don't hesitate to continue working on the project - and I see
> potential for Rivet to get a larger user and developer base (even easier
> if Rivet can provide some things that PHP does not provide, or not in
> that quality). But we have to sort out some things first and point in
> the right direction. Well, also it would be good to be not the only one
> who works on Rivet/Apache2 ;-).

I don't have a lot of time right now:-(

BTW, if anyone is a student, I think I can get Rivet added to the google
summer of code program via the Apache Software Foundation.  $4500 isn't
that much compared to some jobs, but it's not a bad amount to finish up
the port!

http://wiki.apache.org/general/SummerOfCode2006

-- 
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/

Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/



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