two-bitcoin?! TextJam as A tour in the orbit of bitcoins'[s] circulation, revolution and condition of flowing concerning the measure of value based on human labour December 20, 2013 (17:08) 20:00 - open end (in English) The full text in chat-format see below Der vollstaendige Text auf Englisch im Chat-Format siehe unten
Unicode (In German, sorry) Das mehr oder weniger Signifikante bei der Entstehung von Bitcoin war/ist das materielle Zugestaendnis, dass das Mining (Gewinnung) ueber eine mit Arbeit aufgebaute Maschinerie des Rechnens per Computer erfolgte und kein rein virtuelles -- semiotisches -- Minting (Muenzen) auf Zeichenbasis darstellt. Dies ist ausserdem das Zugestaendnis an eine materialistische Geldwertheorie, die bei der Geldware vom in dieser Ware vergegenstaendlichten menschlichen Arbeitsprozess, der in der Automation selbstverstaendlich enthalten ist, ausgeht. In einer Generation Rechner (Computer) sind Generationen _Arbeit_ -- eine Theorie des geistigen Szientistischen nennt es reduzierend _Wissen_ oder in Absetzung davon _Hardware_ -- angehaeuft. Jedes Bit "coin" erhaelt Wert aus dieser Arbeit. Das unterscheidet es vom als rein "virtuell" konzipierten Geld, aber auch vom fiktiven oder vom imaginaeren Geld, dessen Gebrauchswert nur Zeichenfunktion ist, dessen im gegebener (Eigen-)Wert nicht auf die Gewinnung zurueckgehen kann und dessen 'Gegenwert' blosz vorgestellt ist. Wobei die Vorstellung sich auf Waren in der Zirkulation bezieht, die laengst vorhanden sind. Imaginaeres Geld wuerde also einfach nur die Geldmenge zur Darstellung dieser Waren in Preisen erhoehen -- was einige Probleme mit sich bringen kann (Geldabwertung, Beschleunigung des Umschlags, Stoerung anderer Welt-Waehrungen). Ideelles Geld ist aber nicht rein imaginaer, es ist -- warenbezogen -- notwendig ideell, als Wertausdruck. Bitcoin ist zwar als nichtstaatliche und zonale (Datenverkehr) Waehrung Spekulationsobjekt, aber nur weil es potentielles Zahlungsmittel ist, weil es Wert darstellt und anzeigt -- wie Papiergeld. Jedes Zahlungsmittel ist ideeller Wert. Spekulation auf Geld muss aber auf einen materiellen Ursprung, das Mining, referenzieren und im Zweifelsfall seine Funktion Zahlungsmittel sanktionieren. Mit Bitcoin lassen sich alle Formen der Geldware, bis zum Regional- und Lokalgeld, erkennen und werden nicht ueberschritten, es sei denn in der mit ihm verbundenen Moechtegern-Weltgeld-Fantasie eines absoluten und auch noch "demokratischen Geldes" fuer alle Warenbeziehungen. Faktisch wurde mit BTC das Mining aber sofort zum Minting. Ohne das erstere waere es reines Muenzen gewesen und wuerde, was zum hohen Grad auch geschieht, staendig ueber den Geldwarewert anderer Waehrungen bemessen -- bewertet -- werden. Heisse Hoffnungen auf ein neues "Universal Money" (auf Deutsch bei Marx "Weltgeld") per Rechner werden sich entspannen. Virtuelle Waehrungen werden wirkliche, da sie ueber andere wirkliche Waehrungen und vor allem die Anbindung an die Warenwerte an Kapitalien und die Produktion gebunden bleiben, die in Krisenituationen und im alltaeeglichen Normalfall der Subvention und Handelsschutzmasznahmen den Kredit des last ressort, geschuetzt von einem oder mehreren Staaten, noetig haben. Dass Muenzen den Staat und seine Schutzfunktion fuers Kapital ueberfluessig machte, ist nicht zu erkennen. Im Gegenteil verschaffen Verfechter des Bitcoin und anderer informatischer Geldformen einen Cashflow im Devisenbereich, im besten Fall einen neu-nominierten (Denomination) Kapitalfluss im Finanzkapitalbereich mit den entsprechenden Extragewinnen und -verlusten. Fuer Bitcoin u.a. gilt das Versprechen des Gewinns aus disruptiven <alte verdraengende> Geschaeften im kleinkapitalistischen Stil. Die eigene Speicherplatte und Rechnerkapazitaet verbindet sich mit auratischer Verfrorenheit (Coolness). Diese Geschaefte formieren sich als des-ruptive, nicht-brechende, Kapitalverhaeltnisse stuetzende und eneuernde. Die fuer das Bitcoin-Thema geplante TextJam auf dem Server von Connex I/O musste aufgrund von Speicherproblemen leider verlegt werden. Die folgenden Textjams werden zunaechst weiterhin auf bloochat laufen. Yelena Simc, Matze Schmidt [05:05 pm] System: Chat room http://bloochat.com/vv2m9 created. Welcome! To invite people to the chat room, just give them this address. [05:05 pm] System: n0name DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters. [05:08 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam now here: http://bloochat.com/vv2m9 [05:08 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open? [05:08 pm] n0name: don't have the time, got to work. [05:09 pm] n0name: since 17:08 [05:13 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?!? two-bitcoin?! [05:13 pm] n0name: but not the money is the richnessnes [05:13 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open? don't have the time, got to work. [05:13 pm] n0name: The sudden reversion from a system of credit to a system of hard cash = monetary system. When does it happen? When the rich don't have the money the poor don't have the jobs -- the [unlink] bidder [unlink] thinks. [05:17 pm] n0name: Symbolic bits as money are currency of money. [05:19 pm] n0name: perhaps "Means of Payment" [05:24 pm] n0name: buy ... pay [05:25 pm] n0name: Means of payment, means of buying [05:26 pm] n0name: Marx quotes Luther, who differentiates in money as means of buying and means of payment -- in: [05:27 pm] n0name: Karl Marx. Capital Volume One Chapter Three: Money, Or the Circulation of Commodities SECTION 3 MONEY B. Means of Payment [05:27 pm] n0name: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1 /ch03.htm#S3b [05:29 pm] n0name: So there can be a delay between buying an paying. This inbetween can cause inbetweeners. [05:30 pm] n0name: The vendor becomes a creditor, the purchaser becomes a debtor. [05:31 pm] n0name: But we are talking (chatting) about G-G', which means money-more money. [05:32 pm] n0name: A form of value. [05:34 pm] n0name: The inbetween (delay) of the act of purchase and the act of payment causes the credit. [05:37 pm] n0name: Currency (latin "currens") is the condition of flowing. The thing that moves constantly, whereas commodities fall out of the process. [05:39 pm] n0name: credere = believing, entrust [05:40 pm] n0name: The creditor is a beliver and belives in the payback. [05:41 pm] n0name: The current (or stream) of money came to a halt for the credit. [05:43 pm] n0name: This is: [05:43 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam as A tour in the orbit of bitcoins' circulation, revolution and condition of flowing concerning the measure of value based on human labour December 20, 2013 [05:43 pm] n0name: The current/currency is a sort of orbit, the cours de la monnaie. [05:47 pm] n0name: What began as C-C (commodity for commodity, became the form C-M-C (commodity for money for commodity). [05:48 pm] n0name: And then M-C-M (money for commodity for money). [05:49 pm] n0name: "the money. [...] is continually withdrawing commodities from circulation and stepping into their places," [05:49 pm] n0name: ... as the C always is to be consumed, and the M stays. [05:50 pm] n0name: bitcoins can be a money too ;) [06:03 pm] n0name: ... [06:04 pm] n0name: as a form of value (according to the 'theory of value' following Marx) [06:05 pm] n0name: two-bit is lousy [06:06 pm] n0name: "bit" is the binary digit, it can have only one of two values [06:07 pm] n0name: the value of the bit is not an economical value [06:08 pm] n0name: They call the bit "the basic unit of information in computing" -- in fact it is a term for the oscillating of computations/calculations. [06:09 pm] n0name: ... [06:17 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters. [06:18 pm] masgnu: true/false [06:19 pm] masgnu: some thesis by the critics may be that bit-systems (computer systems) determine the values of finances [06:23 pm] n0name: "to send and receive so called 'coins'" does not necessarily determine values. [06:24 pm] System: masgnu has left. [06:24 pm] n0name: Values of finances may be a concept with problems since it suggests a value 'coming out' of the money. [06:26 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters. [06:27 pm] masgnu: but the trade can form the values of the currencies [06:29 pm] n0name: Okay, but mining of "bitcoins" is a mining on the basis of 'regular' money/currencies. Trading of C (money) as currency not as pay-money may cause shifts in their prices. [06:29 pm] masgnu: the libor scandal [06:30 pm] n0name: Yes, but let's first check out the money and its functions. [06:31 pm] n0name: To find out what's going on with bits of coins. [06:33 pm] n0name: In order to find it out, we can differentiate forms of money as »buy-money«, »pay-money«, »currency« in the circulation and money as hoard (treasure). [06:34 pm] masgnu: money as bits [06:34 pm] n0name: Money as bits can be regarded as coins -- as signs for the value of money. [06:35 pm] masgnu: and coins ca become a treasure [06:36 pm] n0name: Yes, but only when is gets immovable, when money as coins becomes money again. [06:36 pm] masgnu: ? [06:37 pm] n0name: wait [06:37 pm] n0name: This is the "two-bitcoin?!" TextJam [06:37 pm] n0name: Very much becoming a kind of radio show chat. [06:38 pm] n0name: Its subtitle was: [06:38 pm] n0name: A tour in the orbit of bitcoins' circulation, revolution and condition of flowing concerning the measure of value based on human labour [06:38 pm] n0name: coins ca become a treasure [06:38 pm] n0name: money as money -> ? [06:39 pm] n0name: I'd say: money can be the "medium" for the value out of work. [06:39 pm] masgnu: but as a medium that holds the value [06:40 pm] n0name: Right -- and which does not only signify. It is -- according to Marx "Capital" -- a kind of form of value. [06:40 pm] n0name: carrier [06:41 pm] n0name: We can take into consideration different forms of this »value-carrier«. [06:42 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters. [06:42 pm] n0name: Hi, three IPs very close. [06:43 pm] Nomos: hi [06:44 pm] System: masgnu has left. [06:44 pm] Nomos: okay, value as money, as coins, as medium for buying, as medium for payment, as hoard [06:45 pm] n0name: Therefore value can be a hoard, a hoard of money as a hoard of value. [06:46 pm] n0name: It gets from movable into an immovable 'thing', a surreal/real thing, a condition. [06:47 pm] n0name: BTC (bitcoin) can be traded and hoarded, can be used as medium for buying, as medium for payment. [06:50 pm] n0name: It is now (since about Dec 18) forbidden to change BTC into renminbi, the Chinese currency. [06:50 pm] Nomos: one can still buy thing with it [06:52 pm] n0name: A few maybe. Important here for me: BTC functions (still) as medium for buying/paying but trade ended. [06:54 pm] n0name: The up and down of BTC as currency in relation to its function as means for pay was too fast and too super.. [06:54 pm] Nomos: . [06:56 pm] n0name: "Unlike traditional currencies such as dollars, bitcoins are issued and managed without any central authority whatsoever" [06:56 pm] n0name: end of end of quotation [06:57 pm] n0name: be your own bank [06:57 pm] n0name: there is no government, company, or bank in charge of Bitcoin [06:57 pm] n0name: end of end of 2nd quotation [06:57 pm] n0name: It's all phrase. [06:58 pm] n0name: The 'virtual' currency (buy, pay, hoard, trade, credit, etc.) is related to currencies/leading currencies (government, company, or bank) [06:59 pm] n0name: ... government, company, or bank 'driven'. [06:59 pm] n0name: -driven [06:59 pm] Nomos: exchange first [07:00 pm] n0name: Who is specialised in online culture and the dark net? [07:01 pm] n0name: They say: 21 million Bitcoins are in circulation. [07:01 pm] n0name: see: [07:02 pm] n0name: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/jamiebartl ett/100011868/one-day-amazon-will-accept-bitcoins- thats-when-central-banks-and-governments-get- nervous/ [07:02 pm] n0name: Coins in circulation are firstly the means of payment related to the commodities in circulation. [07:03 pm] n0name: So a first brief statement can be: [07:04 pm] n0name: A currency without the agencies government, company, or bank (more specifically government, bank) [07:04 pm] n0name: is still related to wares. [07:04 pm] n0name: Is based on wares = based on value(s). [07:06 pm] n0name: So the triple of negation "government, company, or bank" is untrue. Companies, resp. are in. [07:07 pm] n0name: As well as a) governments and/or b) banks. a) coin the coins and banks distribute. [07:08 pm] n0name: The specialised one tells: virtual money "may erode tax-raising powers" -- and the powers of state? [07:10 pm] n0name: On the one hand one could state: This is a neo-liberal project lingo against the state pro individual companies. [07:14 pm] n0name: On the other hand it is onyl another M-M' just as any other currency. it may become (a) universal money (world money) -- as every nation needs a reserve of money for its own circulation, it requires one for external circulation in the markets of the world (see Marx, "Universal Money"). [07:16 pm] n0name: BTC can become one like EURO, Dollar ... That will not change the function of the national markets, even if numbers of minters a peer-to-peer buyers/ sellers production will be located. [07:16 pm] n0name: Quote: [07:16 pm] n0name: "Apparently there is already an entire trendy suburb in Berlin where you can more or less live on them already." [07:18 pm] n0name: One M for another M (M = money). Another local currency, direct money, cheaper credit but credit. [07:23 pm] Nomos: credit can be made here without value coming of labor [07:25 pm] n0name: A value that assesses 'itself' via the value of other values, here money -- via prices for money. A typical moment of crisis. [07:29 pm] n0name: First theory of signs, then an economical M-M circle. When BTC is for the conduits (canals) for money needed, it will loose its value. [07:29 pm] n0name: maybe [07:31 pm] n0name: We call "inflation" a reflection of a reduction in the purchasing power per unit of money [means of buying], the loss of real value in the medium of exchange [means of paying]." [07:32 pm] n0name: The measure for this is the general price index for wares ... money:wares. [07:34 pm] n0name: bitcoin is overvalued, overprized. That's why China stopped it. The chatter of the rebellion of DIY-minters ... [07:36 pm] n0name: ... wants to get rid of the last ressort (state banks) in case of a downmove of the value of the currency and needs it at the same time as the maker of the currencies that gives BTC the value.. [07:36 pm] Nomos: full stop [07:38 pm] n0name: Sick of the physical, BTCers want to have the material thing and must constantly state: the modus M-C (money for commodity) is possible. [07:45 pm] n0name: Currency market, exchange market, exchange rate, trading rate -- [07:46 pm] n0name: Buying the coin is one thing, the chain is: [07:47 pm] n0name: _one_ chain is: [07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- Commodity -- producer/seller -- other currency (for buying labour, machines, materials) [07:48 pm] n0name: Another chain is: [07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- other currency, one buys bitcoin for Dollars, for instance. [07:51 pm] n0name: Oh, democracy of the monetary system. [07:54 pm] n0name: #One bought 10,000 bitcoins for $50 [07:55 pm] Nomos: seems the first step was a minting of a sign, the second a buy for value [08:01 pm] n0name: ... [08:02 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin [08:04 pm] n0name: value-bitcoin [08:04 pm] n0name: The arguments: BTC is no commodity based currency; without funds; trust only; gold would have no funds [08:04 pm] n0name: . [08:04 pm] n0name: proves itself valuable [08:08 pm] n0name: no commodity based currency: all currency is based on value, value can only arise from work, crises show this clearly when values fall with the breakdown of value-production [08:11 pm] System: bd GB (IP 92.40.***.***) enters. [08:12 pm] n0name: without funds (nothing would cover it): if no one would accept the form BTC for Commodity, there would be nothing as symbols, a currency must have a fund/cover in values, here: wares [08:12 pm] Nomos: only fund is trust [08:13 pm] n0name: trust only (as the fund/cover): trust of or in what? a trust in a difference [08:14 pm] n0name: the difference of a set value can only be an other value [08:15 pm] System: bd has left. [08:17 pm] n0name: gold would have no funds either: is fairly untrue as gold is based on its own value (metal as product of labour) and in relation to its difference, the value of other wares [08:21 pm] System: horrorface DE (IP 95.91.***.***) enters. [08:21 pm] horrorface: hi [08:25 pm] horrorface: only 3 people? [08:25 pm] n0name: interesting: BTC obviously needs a mining compared to gold which is based on its own value out of mining [08:26 pm] Nomos: a mining with computer-power [08:26 pm] n0name: ... which holds labour power [08:26 pm] System: Nomos leaves. [08:27 pm] horrorface: ok bye [08:28 pm] System: horrorface leaves. [08:28 pm] n0name: So "no funds" is no true, the media- and sign-only theory is (bye) ... [08:28 pm] n0name: not true [08:29 pm] n0name: ... is masking the real basis [08:33 pm] n0name: as measure of value bitcoins is based on human labour, dead human labour realised in a machinery (a computer calculation is mining items of value) and therefore (abridged) no two-bitcoin [08:33 pm] n0name: and the conditions of flowing here are the common ones [08:34 pm] n0name: paused [08:35 pm] System: Sa US (IP 98.154.***.***) enters. [08:35 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters. [08:36 pm] Nomos: so btc's theory and practise are disintegrated [08:38 pm] n0name: Yes, but BTC has only value as coins/currency, It can not represent labour (labour-time) directly. [08:39 pm] System: Sa has left. [08:40 pm] n0name: Money needs its own form of commodity, and only as commodity face to face with other commodities it can represent value. [08:41 pm] n0name: The value can not be based on a self-difference, that is impossible. [08:41 pm] n0name: b(u)ye [08:42 pm] n0name: [this chat still online untill 22:00 German Time] [08:56 pm] System: Nomos leaves. [09:08 pm] System: bluecoffeedark GB (IP 82.2.***.***) enters. [09:08 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi. is this txtjm? [09:09 pm] bluecoffeedark: textjam any1? [09:10 pm] bluecoffeedark: :( [09:12 pm] bluecoffeedark: ok.. i'll copy to a d1ff room [09:17 pm] bluecoffeedark: you are well welcome to jam in http:// bloochat.com/d1ffroom ;) xx [09:28 pm] System: woffle DE (IP 79.214.***.***) enters. [09:37 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi woffle [09:38 pm] bluecoffeedark: check http://rwm.macba.cat/en/curatorial/ genis_segarra_inhuman_voice/capsula [10:17 pm] System: woffle has left. [10:23 pm] System: bogey HU (IP 78.92.***.***) enters. [10:29 pm] System: sdc NO (IP 80.202.***.***) enters. [10:32 pm] System: sdc has left. [10:36 pm] System: n0name has left. [10:40 pm] System: bogey leaves. [10:41 pm] System: none IT (IP 87.18.***.***) enters. [10:42 pm] none: what is this for? http://n0name.de/txtjam/two-bitcoin.txt n0name 2014
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