Hi Davyd,
Thanks for your clarification. It is very interesting to hear about the
"thoughts behind" some of the ideas in Rose.
Your information made a couple of things slightly clearer for me regarding
the choice of a text-file as storage-format of the model.
What you say about " - there was no versioning of model info" when using a
DB back end I find rather strange. Most of larger Product Management systems
are designed on top of a DB, as far as I know. Also, the tool I referred to
earlier (which by the time I used it was called ObjectTeam (no, not
ObjetcTime)) had excelent versioning control both on the sourcefiles it
generated from the then OMT-models, and the model-elements themselves. And
that tool used a standard SQL Oracle DB as a back end.
Anyway, I appreciate the choices Rational have made. You do off course have
the longest experience within the tool-making business :-)
However, why don't Rational provide versioning as standard in Rose ? Why
only rely on an "external" tool ? One could have imagined a solution where
say ClearCase was completely integrated (and for that sake, invisible for
the user) with Rose, in such a way that it did take care of the problems
that at least some of us experiences regarding Rose in a multiuser
environment. It can't be just because "that your (my) architecture or design
stinks" that I get these problems ?!? Off course Rose must support 3rd party
Versioning tools too, but since you own a tool like ClearCase, why not ship
it with Rose in the first place ?
Anyway, thanks for taking time to clearify my sometimes uncleare mind :-)
Regards
Arne Styve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norris, Davyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 16. november 2000 08:57
> To: 'Arne G. Styve'; Peter Lindgren; rose_forum@Rational. Com
> Subject: RE: Rose file format (was Re: (ROSE) M in a circle??)
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> A little bit of Rose history...
>
> A long time ago we used an object database to store Rose model
> information.
> We found that:
> - it was a proprietary database format that you could not repair
> - it did not scale
> - it did not enforce any architectural control
> - it did not do well with concurrent usage
> - it did not upgrade well
> - there was no versioning of model info
>
> A great many other modelling tools (some competitors, some ex-competitors,
> some not) suffer from exactly the same situations because they use a
> database back end.
>
> So we went in search for a model that was scaleable, multi-user capable,
> version friendly with regular CM tools, non-proprietary and easy
> to fix, in
> common use and that promoted good architectural separation.
>
> We found the source code metaphor.
>
> So now Rose uses text-like files which should be treated just like source
> code. You can share them, move them round, copy them, use a subset of them
> and basically treat them pretty badly and they stand the heat. The biggest
> issues I find with my clients is that they don't understand the underlying
> metaphor - once they see Rose as an IDE, a Rose model as a
> project file, and
> the cat files as source, it gets a whole lot simpler.
>
> This is also a suitable level of granularity for architectural control. If
> you find 20 people all need to get into a controlled package to
> change stuff
> at the same time, Rose is telling you that your architecture or design
> stinks!! If you cannot gain a clear separation of control of your UML
> design, how will you ever get control and separation in the finished
> product!!!???
>
> This metaphor works well for source code and we have found it also works
> well for Rose models, with some reported models > 1 Gig in size and with
> more than 400 active users (don't know if this is concurrent or not).
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave.
> --
> Davyd Norris - Consultant
> Regional Services Organisation (Asia Pacific)
> Rational Software
> Sydney, Australia.
> Phone: +61 2 9419 0100
> Fax : +61 2 9419 0160
> HDesk: +61 2 9419 0111
> --
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Arne G. Styve [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, 16 November 2000 3:35 AM
> > To: Peter Lindgren; rose_forum@Rational. Com
> > Subject: RE: Rose file format (was Re: (ROSE) M in a circle??)
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Peter,
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > To: rose_forum@Rational. Com
> > > Subject: Rose file format (was Re: (ROSE) M in a circle??)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Arne G. Styve" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >From the first moment I started using Rose (1 1/2 years ago),
> > > I was very
> > > > surprised to see the way the model is stored. How can you
> > > possible be able
> > > > to ensure a robust environment for your model when using
> > a standard flat
> > > > textfile to store the model in !!!!
> > >
> > > Actually, I'm more confident with a text format file
> > > than with a binary format. When something is broken
> > > it's a lot easier for a technician to see the fault
> > > than with a binary format.
> >
> > I was thinking more in the line of a real solid database as a
> > repository for
> > the model and it's elements. The DB-systems are designed initially for
> > multiple users accessing the same set of data, so why
> > re-invent the wheel ?
> > Also todays DB-systems are very stable, and are highly
> > optimized, so speed
> > should be of now problem. Using a DB as repository, each
> > element in your
> > model can be managed (packages, diagrams, classes, even
> > associations/relations, attributes and operations if
> > desired). Say you want
> > to make changes to a diagram in Package A, and not modify any
> > of the classes
> > in that package. One of the classes beeing Class C. My
> > collegue, say Jo, is
> > working on another diagram (say a sequence diagram) in
> > Package B, in which
> > the Class C is beeing used. While working in the diagram, Jo
> > needs to add a
> > method to the Class C. What will you do then ??!?!??
> >
> > "Hi Arne, can you chek in Package A, caus' I need to update
> > Class C"......so
> > much for configuration management.....
> >
> > So my point is: Flatfiles, no matter on which format, I just
> > can't see any
> > benefits at all. Greate, you can read the propriatory
> > petal-file, but if I
> > wanted to read a 1000 page pice of text (covering 3
> > classes...), I would
> > have preferred a good book instead.
> >
> > There are other tools, like CoolJex for instance, which do have a
> > DB-repository of the kind I would like to see in Rose.
> > Unfortunally (at
> > least what I saw of CoolJex when I last had a peak at it), it
> > lacks the
> > "Microsoft Syndrome" when it comes to integrateability and
> > userfriendliness.....
> >
> > So, it's back to the good old: can't have it both is suppose....
> >
> >
> > >
> > > It's a trade-off between many things, like speed to
> > > load a file etc.
> > >
> > > As a precaution, set the Rose file extensions to be
> > > treated as binaries in your CM tool. Then you are
> > > not tempted to merge them outside Rose.
> > >
> >
> > Thanks for the advice Peter :-) Any ideas of how to make Rose a safer
> > multiuser tool are highly appreciated :-)
> >
> > Regards Arne
> >
> >
> > > /Peter
> > > --
> > > Peter Lindgren Bachelor of Computer
> > > Engineering
> > > ERIEYE C2 Software Design
> > http://www.ericsson.com/erisoft
> > Get your own AWACS:
> http://www.ericsson.se/microwave/2-Products/erieye.asp
> --- Opinions above, expressed or implicit, are my personal
> opinons only ---
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