Is there any difference between Pascal's test case and your case? I though it isn't so this would not point to a bug....
Rainer 2018-05-18 8:53 GMT+02:00 Flo Rance via rsyslog <[email protected]>: > Should I open a bug report for this mmnormalize module that does not > display anything in the debug logs ? > > On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Pascal Withopf <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I created a test for this and everything is working fine with the given >> ruleset and message. >> >> Rsyslog Config: >> >> module(load="../plugins/imtcp/.libs/imtcp") >> module(load="../plugins/mmnormalize/.libs/mmnormalize") >> >> input(type="imtcp" port="13514" ruleset="norm") >> >> template(name="outfmt" type="string" string="severity: %$!severity% msg: >> %$!msg%\n") >> >> ruleset(name="norm") { >> action(type="mmnormalize" useRawMsg="on" >> rulebase="testsuites/mmnormalize_mailinglist_test.rulebase") >> action(type="omfile" file="rsyslog.out.log" template="outfmt") >> } >> >> Input: >> 2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] postgres@postgres [local] FATAL: no >> pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user "postgres", database "postgres", >> SSL off >> >> Ruleset: >> version=2 >> rule=: %date:date-iso% %time:word% %tz:word% [%pid:char-to:\x5d%] >> %user:char-to:\x40%@%db:word% [%host:char-to:\x5d%] >> %severity:char-to:\x3a%: %msg:rest% >> >> Output: >> severity: FATAL msg: no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user >> "postgres", database "postgres", SSL off >> >> >> >> 2018-05-08 16:44 GMT+02:00 Flo Rance via rsyslog < >> [email protected]> >> : >> >> > Yep, already did that. >> > >> > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:38 PM, Rainer Gerhards < >> [email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Doc issue - just remove -c5 >> > > >> > > Sent from phone, thus brief. >> > > >> > > Flo Rance <[email protected]> schrieb am Di., 8. Mai 2018, 16:18: >> > > >> > >> Willingly, but when I try to start the daemon in debug mode, I get the >> > >> following error: >> > >> >> > >> /usr/sbin/rsyslogd -c5 -dn > rsyslog.log >> > >> /usr/sbin/rsyslogd: invalid option -- 'c' >> > >> usage: rsyslogd [options] >> > >> use "man rsyslogd" for details. To run rsyslog interactively, use >> > >> "rsyslogd -n" >> > >> to run it in debug mode use "rsyslogd -dn" >> > >> For further information see http://www.rsyslog.com/doc >> > >> >> > >> Even if the option is explicitely set in /etc/init.d/rsyslog script: >> > >> >> > >> RSYSLOGD_OPTIONS="-c5" >> > >> >> > >> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Rainer Gerhards < >> > [email protected] >> > >> > wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> mmhhhh, that's strange. I would ndeed to craft a testbench test. If >> > >>> you could create a program debug log, that could probably speed up >> the >> > >>> solution process. Doc >> > >>> https://www.rsyslog.com/doc/v8-stable/troubleshooting/ >> > >>> troubleshoot.html#debug-log >> > >>> >> > >>> Rainer >> > >>> >> > >>> 2018-05-08 15:05 GMT+02:00 Flo Rance <[email protected]>: >> > >>> > No, I did not. It is a very basic rule that I've tested to be sure >> > the >> > >>> > problem did not come from the more complex one. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Here's the message debug output from rsyslog. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Rainer Gerhards < >> > >>> [email protected]> >> > >>> > wrote: >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> I think you picked one wrong file: test.rb I don't know, but the >> > >>> >> message debug output from rsyslog is missing. >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> Rainer >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> 2018-05-08 12:49 GMT+02:00 Flo Rance <[email protected]>: >> > >>> >> > Here are the files used to test with lognormalizer. Btw, I'm >> using >> > >>> >> > rsyslog >> > >>> >> > 8.34.0 from the following repo "deb >> > >>> >> > http://ppa.launchpad.net/adiscon/v8-stable/ubuntu xenial main". >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:19 AM, Rainer Gerhards >> > >>> >> > <[email protected]> >> > >>> >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> Not sure if I have time, but maybe others have: can you post >> both >> > >>> the >> > >>> >> >> file and the rulebase **AS FILES**? I'll at least try to have a >> > >>> look. >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> Rainer >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> 2018-05-08 10:43 GMT+02:00 Flo Rance <[email protected]>: >> > >>> >> >> > I've tried that as well. Like that: >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > $ cat postgresql.log >> > >>> >> >> > 2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] postgres@postgres >> [local] >> > >>> FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> > no >> > >>> >> >> > pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user "postgres", >> database >> > >>> >> >> > "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> > SSL off >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > And then: >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > $ /usr/lib/lognorm/lognormalizer -p -r >> > >>> /home/syslog/rules/test.rb < >> > >>> >> >> > postgresql.log >> > >>> >> >> > { "msg": "2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] >> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> > [local] >> > >>> >> >> > FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host \"[local]\", user >> > >>> \"postgres\", >> > >>> >> >> > database \"postgres\", SSL off" } >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > Honestly, I can't figure out what's wrong. >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Rainer Gerhards >> > >>> >> >> > <[email protected]> >> > >>> >> >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> I am not sure if echo gives you exactly what you think it >> > does. >> > >>> Most >> > >>> >> >> >> importantly, I am not sure if it skips the (important) first >> > >>> space. >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> I usually place the data into a file, so I know exactly what >> > it >> > >>> is. >> > >>> >> >> >> Then I use stdin redirection (<) to put that file into the >> > >>> program, >> > >>> >> >> >> e.g. >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> $ loganalyzer < inputfile .... >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> HTH >> > >>> >> >> >> Rainer >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> 2018-05-08 9:42 GMT+02:00 Flo Rance <[email protected]>: >> > >>> >> >> >> > May anyone give me any tips ? Because I'm completely >> stucked >> > >>> >> >> >> > there. >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > I've tried again with a very simple rule: >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > version=2 >> > >>> >> >> >> > rule=: %msg:rest% >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > It's working correctly with lognormalizer: >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > echo ' 2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] >> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> > [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> > FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> >> > no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user "postgres", >> > >>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> > "postgres", SSL off' | /usr/lib/lognorm/lognormalizer -p >> -r >> > >>> >> >> >> > /home/syslog/rules/test.rb >> > >>> >> >> >> > { "msg": "2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] >> > >>> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> > [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> > FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host \"[local]\", user >> > >>> >> >> >> > \"postgres\", >> > >>> >> >> >> > database \"postgres\", SSL off" } >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > But I still get nothing in the debug logs: >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > Debug line with all properties: >> > >>> >> >> >> > FROMHOST: 'sc006692.aevisintra.ch', fromhost-ip: >> > '127.0.0.1', >> > >>> >> >> >> > HOSTNAME: >> > >>> >> >> >> > 'sc006692.aevisintra.ch', PRI: 155, >> > >>> >> >> >> > syslogtag 'docker_fluance-authenticationdb[1116]:', >> > >>> programname: >> > >>> >> >> >> > 'docker_fluance-authenticationdb', APP-NAME: >> > >>> >> >> >> > 'docker_fluance-authenticationdb', PROCID: '1116', MSGID: >> > >>> '-', >> > >>> >> >> >> > TIMESTAMP: 'May 8 09:30:05', STRUCTURED-DATA: '-', >> > >>> >> >> >> > msg: ' 2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] >> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> > [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> > FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> >> > no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user "postgres", >> > >>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> > "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> > escaped msg: ' 2018-05-08 09:30:05.947 CEST [1758] >> > >>> >> >> >> > postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> > [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> > FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user >> > >>> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> > database >> > >>> >> >> >> > "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> > inputname: imuxsock rawmsg: '<155>May 8 09:30:05 >> > >>> >> >> >> > docker_fluance-authenticationdb[1116]: 2018-05-08 >> > >>> 09:30:05.947 >> > >>> >> >> >> > CEST >> > >>> >> >> >> > [1758] >> > >>> >> >> >> > postgres@postgres [local] FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry >> for >> > >>> host >> > >>> >> >> >> > "[local]", >> > >>> >> >> >> > user "postgres", database "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> > $!: >> > >>> >> >> >> > $.: >> > >>> >> >> >> > $/: >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> >> > On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Flo Rance < >> > >>> [email protected]> >> > >>> >> >> >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> I don't really understand what you mean by adding the >> > >>> appropriate >> > >>> >> >> >> >> quotes >> > >>> >> >> >> >> to the rule. They are part of the %msg:rest% at the end. >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> I've tried again with the single quoted message and I get >> > the >> > >>> >> >> >> >> following >> > >>> >> >> >> >> result: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> echo ' 2018-05-04 10:24:16.573 CEST [53] >> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> >> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >> FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "postgres", SSL off' | /usr/lib/lognorm/lognormalizer -r >> > >>> >> >> >> >> /home/syslog/rules/postgresql.rb >> > >>> >> >> >> >> { "msg": " no pg_hba.conf entry for host \"[local]\", >> user >> > >>> >> >> >> >> \"postgres\", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> database \"postgres\", SSL off", "severity": "FATAL", >> > "host": >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "local", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "db": >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "postgres", "user": "postgres", "pid": "53", "tz": >> "CEST", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "time": >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "10:24:16.573", "date": "2018-05-04" } >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> But there's still nothing in the debug logs: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> Debug line with all properties: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> FROMHOST: 'sc005827.domain', fromhost-ip: '127.0.0.1', >> > >>> HOSTNAME: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> 'sc005827.domain', PRI: 155, >> > >>> >> >> >> >> syslogtag 'docker_fluance-authenticationdb[1092]:', >> > >>> programname: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> 'docker_fluance-authenticationdb', APP-NAME: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> 'docker_fluance-authenticationdb', PROCID: '1092', >> MSGID: >> > >>> '-', >> > >>> >> >> >> >> TIMESTAMP: 'May 4 10:24:16', STRUCTURED-DATA: '-', >> > >>> >> >> >> >> msg: ' 2018-05-04 10:24:16.573 CEST [53] >> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> >> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >> FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> >> escaped msg: ' 2018-05-04 10:24:16.573 CEST [53] >> > >>> >> >> >> >> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> >> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >> FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user >> > >>> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> >> inputname: imuxsock rawmsg: '<155>May 4 10:24:16 >> > >>> >> >> >> >> docker_fluance-authenticationdb[1092]: 2018-05-04 >> > >>> 10:24:16.573 >> > >>> >> >> >> >> CEST >> > >>> >> >> >> >> [53] >> > >>> >> >> >> >> postgres@postgres [local] FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry >> for >> > >>> host >> > >>> >> >> >> >> "[local]", >> > >>> >> >> >> >> user "postgres", database "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> >> $!: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> $.: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> $/: >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 11:38 PM, David Lang < >> [email protected] >> > > >> > >>> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> your ruleset doesn't have quotes in it. >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> the way you are echoing it with the wrong quotes is >> > causing >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> things >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> to >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> not >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> work as expected. the line that you are actually >> > processing >> > >>> is: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> 2018-05-03 11:04:20.201 CEST [24873] postgres@postgres >> > >>> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> no pg_hba.conf entry for host [local], user postgres, >> > >>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> postgres, SSL >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> off >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> while what is being sent is actually: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> 2018-05-03 11:04:20.201 CEST [24873] postgres@postgres >> > >>> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> FATAL: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user >> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> "postgres", SSL off >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> add the appropriate quotes to your rule and it should >> work >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> properly >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> David Lang >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, 3 May 2018, Flo Rance wrote: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 11:13:02 +0200 >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> From: Flo Rance <[email protected]> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> To: David Lang <[email protected]> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> Cc: Rainer Gerhards <[email protected]>, >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [rsyslog] Filter on priority from docker >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> Here's the rule that is applied: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> rule=: %date:date-iso% %time:word% %tz:word% >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> [%pid:char-to:\x5d%] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> %user:char-to:\x40%@%db:word% [%host:char-to:\x5d%] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> %severity:char-to:\x3a%: %msg:rest% >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> Here's the output of the lognormalizer utility: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> echo " 2018-05-03 11:04:20.201 CEST [24873] >> > >>> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "postgres", SSL off" | /usr/lib/lognorm/lognormalizer >> -r >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> /home/syslog/rules/postgresql.rb >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> { "msg": " no pg_hba.conf entry for host [local], user >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> postgres, >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> postgres, SSL off", "severity": "FATAL", "host": >> "local", >> > >>> "db": >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "user": "postgres", "pid": "24873", "tz": "CEST", >> "time": >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "11:04:20.201", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "date": "2018-05-03" } >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> and finally the output of rsyslog debug: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> Debug line with all properties: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> FROMHOST: 'sc006692.domain', fromhost-ip: '127.0.0.1', >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> HOSTNAME: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> 'sc006692.domain', PRI: 155, >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> syslogtag 'docker_fluance-ehealthdb[1116]:', >> > programname: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> 'docker_fluance-ehealthdb', APP-NAME: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> 'docker_fluance-ehealthdb', >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> PROCID: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> '1116', MSGID: '-', >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> TIMESTAMP: 'May 3 11:04:20', STRUCTURED-DATA: '-', >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> msg: ' 2018-05-03 11:04:20.201 CEST [24873] >> > >>> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> [local] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host "[local]", user >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> database >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> escaped msg: ' 2018-05-03 11:04:20.201 CEST [24873] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> postgres@postgres >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> [local] FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host >> "[local]", >> > >>> user >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "postgres", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> database "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> inputname: imuxsock rawmsg: '<155>May 3 11:04:20 >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> docker_fluance-ehealthdb[1116]: 2018-05-03 >> 11:04:20.201 >> > >>> CEST >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> [24873] >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> postgres@postgres [local] FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry >> > >>> for host >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> "[local]", >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> user "postgres", database "postgres", SSL off' >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> $!: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> $.: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> $/: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:20 PM, David Lang < >> > [email protected] >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> wrote: >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> Please post your rulebase and the output from >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> RSYSLOG_DebugFormat >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> so >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> that >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> we can look at a message that should be matched and >> what >> > >>> the >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> ruleset >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> for >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> the match is. >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> Odds are that there is something different in the >> > message >> > >>> than >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> you >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> think >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> it is, so your rule doesn't actually match. >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > rsyslog mailing list >> > http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >> > http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >> > What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >> > NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >> > of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >> > DON'T LIKE THAT. >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> rsyslog mailing list >> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >> DON'T LIKE THAT. >> > _______________________________________________ > rsyslog mailing list > http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog > http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ > What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards > NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of > sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T > LIKE THAT. _______________________________________________ rsyslog mailing list http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T LIKE THAT.
