Dear Lucy,

I have read through the draft, it reads very well, below are my comments:

1.1 Motivation

Ice: Creating a ‘multicast’ fabric can be done with PIM/mLDP/RSVP-TE as well, 
this is not a specific benefit of adding tree building inside of the IGP. Note 
that the MVPN procedures (RFC6513) described mechanisms similar to what is 
proposed in this draft, i.e. create a Mi-PMSI (default fabric) and S-PMSI 
(specific trees). And RFC6514 describes how to use auto-provision those trees. 
It is not clear to me from the draft (or use-case) that there is a reason to 
avoid BGP.

Ice: Longer convergence times of PIM compared to unicast are due to two 
factors, the delay of signalling from RIB to PIM AND the amount of state 
(trees) that need to be updated in the PIM database. The first delay is 
relatively small, say order of 100ms, the cost of updating a high number of 
PIM/mLDP trees is higher and increases with the amount of state.

3.2.2. Parallel Local Link Selection

Quote from draft:
   “….Note that if multiple distribution trees are configured in a domain
   or on a router, better load balance among parallel links through the
   tie-breaking algorithm can be achieved. Otherwise, if there is only
   one tree is configured, then only one link in parallel links can be
   used for the corresponding distribution tree. However, calculating
   and maintaining many trees is resource consuming. Operators need to
   balance between two …."

Ice: It is very likely network operators want to take benefit of ECMP through 
the network, so having a single tree in the network is not an attractive 
option. Also, a ‘default’ single tree in the network will cause flooding and 
waisting of bandwidth (the nature of Tree aggregation). Putting the burden on 
the operators to choose their poison (Flooding or State) it not solving any 
problem for operators  compared to how multicast is deployed today. This is one 
of the key issues we need to address IMO.

3.4. Pruning a Distribution Tree for a Group

Ice: I can see it could be useful to use the link state database to build a 
tree, but if we’re going down the path of creating multiple trees for different 
receiver populations, it means you need to maintain state for each of those 
trees. If we now compare this with mLDP/PIM, you end up with the same amount of 
state, its just that it is signalled via the IGP. The way the tree is 
calculated in the IGP is different from how PIM/mLDP does it, but its not clear 
if using the IGP database is any better.

4.4. Reverse Path Forwarding Check (RPFC)

Ice: This section raises an important issue. The advantage of using the IGP 
database to build a tree is that it follows the (forward looking) unicast path 
towards its destination(s). There is no dependency on the RPF check as we know 
it from PIM and mLDP, which is a simplification. Not having the RPF check makes 
you more receptive to loops, as you indicated in this section. By adding RPFC 
back into the mix to prevent loops, we’re now combining the ‘forward looking’ 
path selection done by the upstream router and the ‘backwards looking’ (RPFC) 
accept mechanise on the downstream router. If there are async paths in the 
network there is no guarantee they select the same link, causing the downstream 
router to incorrectly drop the packets.


Summarising:

Using the IGP Link State Database to build an IGP Tree per Root could be useful 
in some scenario’s, but the lacking of RFC check make this IGP Tree much more 
receptive to loops. I think this is a big concern and adding back the RPF check 
back into the mix just complicates the solution.

Its is not clear that the procedures and mechanisms to build pruned IGP Trees 
are any simpler then how PIM/mLDP/RSVP-TE trees are build. When looking at the 
amount of state maintained in the network, its probably the same. Saying that 
doing IGP Tree building is better because there is no need to run an other 
protocol like PIM/mLDP is misleading. Obviously the procedures added into the 
IGP come with a cost, in complexity, state and signalling requirements. This is 
not something that comes for free and now everybody who understand unicast IGP 
knows how the multicast procedures work.

If the problem we are trying to solve is driven by ‘plug and play’ and/or auto 
provisioning, there are existing BGP mechanisms that we can use in combination 
with PIM/mLDP/RSVP-TE. 

Thx,

Ice.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtgwg [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:51 AM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for 
> draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch-00.txt
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We upload this new draft and like to get your comments.
> 
> The subject was proposed to IS-IS WG first. AD suggested splitting the 
> original proposal into two: IGP multicast architecture and IS-IS protocol 
> extension, and work out the architecture in RTG WG. 
> 
> We will present this in Honolulu.
> 
> Thanks,
> Lucy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 4:54 PM
> To: Andrew Qu; Jon Hudson; Lucy yong; Haoweiguo; Lucy yong; Donald Eastlake; 
> Andrew Qu; Donald E. Eastlake 3rd; Jon Hudson; Haoweiguo
> Subject: New Version Notification for 
> draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch-00.txt
> 
> 
> A new version of I-D, draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Lucy Yong and posted to the IETF 
> repository.
> 
> Name:         draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch
> Revision:     00
> Title:                IGP Multicast Architecture
> Document date:        2014-10-27
> Group:                Individual Submission
> Pages:                13
> URL:            
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch-00.txt
> Status:         
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch/
> Htmlized:       
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yong-rtgwg-igp-multicast-arch-00
> 
> 
> Abstract:
> This document specifies Interior Gateway Protocol (IGP) network architecture 
> to support multicast transport. It describes the architecture components and 
> the algorithms to automatically build a distribution tree for transporting 
> multicast traffic and provides a method of pruning that tree for improved 
> efficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission 
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> The IETF Secretariat
> 
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