Hi, Robert:

As Deborah mentioned, we have studied the TE requirements in Native IP network 
for some time.
Besides the scenarios and simulation results that described in 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/
We also provided the solution draft in 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip/  and the 
corresponding PCEP extension draft 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip/

The above solutions can also accomplish the aims that you mentioned in your 
draft.

I have also read your draft in general and will review it detail in following 
days. Anyway, I am glad to know that TE in Native IP requirements become more 
aware to more people. 

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

> On Sep 27, 2019, at 23:36, Robert Raszuk <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Deborah,
> 
> Thank you for assuring me of the TEAS perspective. As I mentioned to Adrian 
> and Lou I am more then happy to redirect the draft to TEAS and can rename the 
> title in no time. The only question is that would TEAS also have room to work 
> on solution which goes beyond just path steering in IP networks but also 
> takes on providing extra sauce on top which would be embedded functions and 
> value add processing instructions to the combined architecture ? 
> 
> I do not see why not just trying to make sure there will not be need to split 
> into different documents as it would rather be a bit tough. 
> 
> Many thx for great guidance ! 
> Robert.
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 5:25 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hi Robert,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> As Adrian says, charters are not written in stone, they can only reflect 
>> what was known at the time of writing. And there is a “re-charter” option😊
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On TE for IP, TEAS has already started work (initiated by operators – really 
>> interesting that you also find this work of value for IP). The document was 
>> already IETF Last Called and is scheduled for next week’s telechat (if any 
>> last comments, please let me know):
>> 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> And TEAS has a solution document on-going. While the work is more focused on 
>> PCE, the use case is the same (above document link) as you say in your 
>> document:
>> 
>> “Another category of global networking which can significantly benefit
>> 
>> from standards based IP TE solution is unified model of path
>> 
>> engineering for Software Defined Wide Area Networks (SDWANs).  One of
>> 
>> the basic operational principles in selected SDWANs is point to point
>> 
>> underlay selection based on the applied SLA characteristics.  Adding
>> 
>> ability to traffic engineer such underlay flows allows to bypass
>> 
>> under performing underlay default paths or congestion points
>> 
>> occurring even few autonomous systems away.”
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On passing the “laugh test”, TEAS has already given it the go-ahead. As the 
>> shepherd writeup says, though, there was a low interest level. If you read 
>> some of the other AD reviews coming in for the telechat, they are 
>> questioning it too. Your draft definitely supports there are more operators 
>> seeing the need.
>> 
>> TEAS is the home for generic TE architecture work on new capabilities, then 
>> the group works with other protocol owning groups for extensions needed. 
>> This is why the current IP TE work is on-going in TEAS, then when PCE 
>> extensions are identified, it will work with PCE. Your draft is very timely 
>> for being able to develop a generic architecture.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> You are not homeless, you have a home😊
>> 
>> Deborah
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Teas <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
>> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 6:50 AM
>> To: Adrian Farrel <[email protected]>
>> Cc: Lou Berger <[email protected]>; [email protected]; RTGWG <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: [Teas] IP Traffic Engineering
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hey Adrian,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Frankly, the more people look at an idea, the better.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Of course .. this is IMHO the biggest IETF value. To share idea and get 
>> feedback then if passes laugh test find a WG home for it. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> In fact I am already a bit shocked to get so many on list and off list mails 
>> so short after submission. I was hoping I only contribute one little piece 
>> to big jigsaw TE+NP puzzle but it sounds like I hit Bonshō :)
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> And now you mention BESS .... 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Many thx,
>> Robert.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  It is only once we start to progress the work that we need to find a ‘home’ 
>> so that we only have to follow one list to have a discussion.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Wrt the TEAS charter: mia culpa.. But don’t read it as “MUST NOT coordinate 
>> on other things” only as “MUST coordinate on at least this thing”.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> BTW There is some BESS work on communicating “path and function” that is 
>> aligned with a generic form of SFC.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Robert Raszuk <[email protected]> 
>> Sent: 27 September 2019 11:07
>> To: Adrian Farrel <[email protected]>; Lou Berger <[email protected]>
>> Cc: RTGWG <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: IP Traffic Engineering
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi Adrian and Lou,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Many thx for your suggestion. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Reading charter of TEAS it does seems like a good fit for the IP TE part. 
>> What is however not in the TEAS charter is concept of network functions 
>> which is the second part of the solution natively embedded in the proposed 
>> architecture from day one (IP TE+NP part). 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I think I will not hurt anyone to submit it to TEAS. I guess we can keep -00 
>> also in RTGWG for now. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I guess it will be up to chairs and ADs of those two working groups to 
>> decide which one should "own" this type of hybrid work. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Btw looking at TEAS charter I found a bit artificial scoped coordination 
>> with IDR limited to BGP-LS. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> "- With the IDR WG on the use of BGP-LS in TE environments."
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> In my specific case I do plan to use other BGP extensions as possible 
>> alternatives to distribute the path+function information around. But I am 
>> not defining any new extensions (only reusing as is 
>> draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy) so this is not a stopper for me. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Many thx,
>> 
>> Robert.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:09 AM Adrian Farrel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Robert,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> It’s an interesting draft.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Did you know there is a working group chartered to work on IP Traffic 
>> Engineering Architecture? It’s TEAS.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: rtgwg <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
>> Sent: 27 September 2019 00:07
>> To: RTGWG <[email protected]>
>> Subject: IP Traffic Engineering
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Dear RTGWG,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I just submitted a document where I present new perspective on traffic 
>> engineering for IP networks. As the scope of the new architecture and 
>> deployment target does not fit any other working group I decided to submit 
>> it to RTGWG. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Comments, opinions, contribution - very welcome !
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> Robert. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> - - - 
>> 
>> 
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
>> directories.
>> 
>> 
>>         Title           : IP Traffic Engineering Architecture with Network 
>> Programming
>>         Author          : Robert Raszuk
>>         Filename        : draft-raszuk-rtgwg-ip-te-np-00.txt
>>         Pages           : 22
>>         Date            : 2019-09-26
>> 
>> Abstract:
>>    This document describes a control plane based IP Traffic Engineering
>>    Architecture where path information is kept in the control plane by
>>    selected nodes instead of being inserted into each packet on ingress
>>    of an administrative domain.  The described proposal is also fully
>>    compatible with the concept of network programming.
>> 
>>    It is positioned as a complimentary technique to native SRv6 and can
>>    be used when there are concerns with increased packet size due to
>>    depth of SID stack, possible concerns regarding exceeding MTU or more
>>    strict simplicity requirements typically seen in number of enterprise
>>    networks.  The proposed solution is applicable to both IPv4 or IPv6
>>    based networks.
>> 
>>    As an additional added value, detection of end to end path liveness
>>    as well as dynamic path selection based on real time path quality is
>>    integrated from day one in the design.
>> 
>> 
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raszuk-rtgwg-ip-te-np/
>> 
>> There are also htmlized versions available at:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-rtgwg-ip-te-np-00
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-raszuk-rtgwg-ip-te-np-00
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtgwg mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg
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