Hi Stewart,

Please see inline



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From: Stewart Bryant <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 2:08 PM
To: [email protected]; rtgwg-chairs <[email protected]>; 
[email protected]
Cc: Stewart Bryant <[email protected]>
Subject: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple pathological 
network fragment

During the operations directorate early review of 
draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa
Gyan Mishra points to a simple pathological network fragment that I think 
deserves wider discussion.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-11-opsdir-early-mishra-2023-08-25/

I am not aware of any response to the RTGWG by the draft authors concerning the 
review comment and I cannot see obvious new text addressing this concern.

The fragment is as follows

CE1 -R1- R2-/-R3-CE2
     |         |
     R4 - R5 -R6

In the pre converged network R4 is ECMP CE2 via R5 (cost 4) and via R1 (cost 
also 4).

We can easily build a TI-LFA repair path from R2 under link failure to CE2 (so 
long as we remember that R4 is an ECMP path to CE2), but the problem occurs 
during convergence. If R1 converges before R4, R4 may ECMP packets addressed to 
CE2 back to R1 in a micro loop. Meanwhile since no packets for R3 are reaching 
R2 the Ti-LFA repair is not doing anything useful.

The Ti-LFA text leads the reader to conclude that it is a loop-free solution, 
but gives no guidance on how to determine when this assumption breaks down. 
There is an informational reference to
draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop, but this short individual draft 
does little in the way of helping the reader determine when  loop avoidance 
strategy needs to be deployed and the loop-free approach it describes does not 
seem to be fully developed.

I am worried that proceeding with the Ti-LFA draft without noting that there is 
a real risk that simple network fragments can micoloop, and providing a fully 
formed mitigation strategy is a disservice to the operator community given the 
industry interest in Ti-LDA and the insidious nature of unexpected micro loop 
network transients, I am wondering what the view of the working group is on how 
to proceed.

One approach would be for the Ti-LFA draft to incorporate detailed guidance on 
how to determine the risk of a micro loop in a specific operator network, and 
to provide specific mitigation advice. Another approach would be to  reference 
a developed loop avoidance strategy and recommending its preemptive deployment. 
Another approach would be to make draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop a 
normative reference and tie the fate of the two drafts. Another approach would 
be to elaborate on the risks and their manifestations but declare it a 
currently unsolved problem. I am sure there are other options that the WG may 
formulate.

What is the opinion of the working group on how we should proceed with 
draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa when considering the possible formation 
of micro loops?

FRR takes place between the failure (detection) and the IGP reconvergence. 
Those are two consecutive steps that the WG has so far addressed with different 
solutions and documents.
That's not new and that's not specific to TI-LFA. E.g., that's applicable to 
RLFA.

Would the below text, taken verbatim from RFC 7490 (RLFA), work for you? Or 
would you say that the text is not good enough?

"When the network reconverges, micro-loops 
[RFC5715<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5715>] can form due to

   transient inconsistencies in the forwarding tables of different

   routers.  If it is determined that micro-loops are a significant

   issue in the deployment, then a suitable loop-free convergence

   method, such as one of those described in 
[RFC5715<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5715>], 
[RFC6976<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6976>], or

   
[ULOOP-DELAY<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7490#ref-ULOOP-DELAY>], 
should be implemented."

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7490#section-10

Of course, we could update the list of informative references.
E.g., by adding another informative reference to 
draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop and by removing informative 
references to [RFC6976] and [ULOOP-DELAY] which are probably outdated.

--Bruno


- Stewart
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