> On 6 Nov 2023, at 08:31, Alexander Vainshtein <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
> 
>  
> Gyan,
> Lots of thanks for your email.
>  
> I hope you (and others) will be able to attend the side meeting proposed by 
> Yingzhen.
>  
> A few technical comments:
>  
> I do not think that TI-LFA or micro-loop avoiding paths comprised of long 
> lists of Adj-SIDs are practical

SB> Correct and are only needed for node failure, particularly if you remove 
the congruence requirement, which is as far as I can see not needed.

> I think that, in the case of a single link failure:
> TI-LFA paths computed in accordance with the rules defined in Section 
> 6.1/6.2/6.3 of the TI-LFA draft are micro-loop avoiding regardless of the 
> distributed nature of IGP convergence.  E.g., a path that uses a PQ node will 
> not be affected by the distributed nature of IGP convergence, because:
>                                                                i.      The 
> path between the PLR and its adjacent node to whose P-space the PQ-node 
> belongs is not affected by IGP convergence
>                                                              ii.      The 
> sets of pre-convergence and post-convergence shortest paths from the 
> above-mentioned adjacency of the PLR to the PQ node are the same – this is 
> the definition of the P-space
>                                                            iii.      The sets 
> of pre-convergence and post-convergence shortest paths from the PQ-node to 
> the destination are the same – this is the definition of the Q-space
>                                                            iv.      The 
> “stitching” of the two paths performed by the PQ-node is not affected by IGP 
> convergence as well.

All correct and is well documented in the various FRR framework and the RLFA 
work.

> TI-LFA is applied to traffic to the destinations affected by the failure by 
> the PLRs immediately after the failure has been detected, and, if it uses one 
> of the above-mentioned techniques, its paths will not be affected by the 
> distributed nature of IGP convergence. These paths should be kept long enough 
> for the rest of the network to apply their micro-loop avoiding paths and then 
> to switch to “normal” SPF paths
Again that is well documented in the loop free work/
> All other (non-PLR) nodes should:
>                                                                i.      
> Compute and apply micro-loop avoidance paths once they complete collection of 
> information about the topology change and identify the change as a single 
> link failure
>                                                              ii.      Keep 
> these paths long enough to let the rest of the nodes to do the same, and then 
> switch to “normal” SPF.
>  

Again this is what the loop free framework teaches.

So we know how to make this work, and I am not sure why TiLFA needs to 
complicate it.

A minimum solution for link failure is RLFA with an SR adjacency SID to get 
from P to Q is there is no PQ node in either P or extend P space. Plus either a 
simple but slow approach to convergence using incremental metrics, or a tunnel 
from every ingress to either the PLR or into Q space followed by an agreed 
delay to allow for convergence of the nodes in P space. Ti LFA MUST be deployed 
with a convergence strategy and any of the approaches I describe in this 
paragraph are mutually compatible and backwards compatible with TiLFA.

Stewart



>  
> Regards,
> Sasha
>  
> From: Gyan Mishra <[email protected]> 
> Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 2:19 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <[email protected]>
> Cc: [email protected]; 
> [email protected]; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected]>; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A 
> simple pathological network fragment
>  
> Hi Sasha 
>  
> Welcome and thank you for all your detailed analysis and engagement on this 
> thread!
>  
> Responses in-line 
>  
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 7:56 AM Alexander Vainshtein 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Gyan,
> Lots of thanks for your email.
>  
> I fully agree that TI-LFA draft should be published ASAP. Hopefully the 
> clarifications proposed by Bruno and myself would suffice for resolving most 
> of concerns regarding relationship between TI-LFA and micro-loops.
>  Gyan> Agreed
> I think what also should be added in the update is relationship between 
> TI-LFA post convergence path and use of minimum number of sids 
> prefix-sid/node sid, and issue with ECMP nature of prefix sid use in case of 
> a chain of nodes with cascading delays in convergence times that requires 
> uloop avoidance list of Adj-sid list in cases where the extended P space for 
> RLFA physical loop style topology is not converged and requires tunneling 
> over the chain of nodes. In the case where the post convergence path is loop 
> free then prefix-sid/node-sid ECMP is not an issue and am good there.
> For the interaction between TI-LFA and uLoop, for example -  TI-LFA applies  
> a loop free policy along the post convergence path static sid list at time 
> T1, so at what time T2 does the uLoop kick in?  uLoop solution does not have 
> a pre programmed path as it’s built based on near or far side tunneling post 
> convergence path after the failure has occurred. So the only time uLoop would 
> kick is with uLoop detection of micro loops in the topology which I think the 
> uLoop or TI-LFA drafts  do not discuss.  Once uLoops are found either in P or 
> Q space for the RLFA then a policy with hop by hop list of Sid’s is created 
> for the SR policy from extended P to Q space PQ node.  I don’t see either 
> draft mentioning this detailed interaction and sequence of events from 
> failure to recovery on backup path.  The key here is with uLoop avoidance as 
> opposed to TI-LFA is that TI-LFA is “not tunneled” as tunneling is not 
> required as the post convergence path is assumed to be loop free.  However, 
> if not loop free within the extended P space with chain of nodes with 
> cascading convergence delays then some sort of RFC 5715 near of far side 
> tunneling needs to be implemented to tunnel over all the nodes not converged. 
>  So I think the critical interaction here with TI-LFA and SR uLoop as opposed 
> to RFC 7490 T-LDP based uLoop is that with when loops exist pre or post 
> convergence with traditional MPLS you specify a single FRR label and the 
> traffic is tunneled to the Q space, however with SR prefix/node-sid it’s 
> ECMP, so no tunneling and that is an issue.  
> In the uLoop draft figure 1 example it shows the RFC 5715 example of using 
> far side tunneling.  The reason for far side is by guess it scales better but 
> I think that far side solution is only applicable for traditional MPLS where 
> a single FRR label pushed yields a tunnel where with SR-MPLS prefix/node-sid 
> yields ECMP and thus no tunneling and so AFAIK far side won’t work with 
> SR-MPLS.  I think you have to use near side tunneling with list of hop by hop 
> Adj-sid.  I have not tested this in the lab but I don’t think far side will 
> work with SR when micro loops exist on the post convergence path in a looped 
> physical topology scenario with a chain of nodes with convergence delays.  
> Distributed tunneling is the same as near side so I think AFAIK due to ECMP 
> issue with SR you have to use near side tunneling for uLoop avoidance. 
> The SR Micro-loop Avoidance draft indeed exists for 7+ years already and is 
> quite stable. Unfortunately, stability also includes Section 3 of the draft 
> that remains unchanged from 00 to -15 (current) version.
>     Gyan> Section 3, it’s mentioned that the policy is out of scope but I 
> think it should be in scope as the goal of TI-LFA is local protection which 
> includes recovery on the P space RLFA post convergence backup path and uLoop 
> invokes as well recovery along the extended P space to Q space PQ node that 
> includes all of the chain of cascading delayed convergence nodes.  So I think 
> that both TI-LFA and uLoop are involved in SR policy based recovery process 
> and AFAIK should be in scope  used for protected convergence and recovery 
> along the backup path.
>  
> And in any case micro-loop avoidance includes the case of recovering links  
> while TI-LFA only deals with links failures.
> This alone looks to me a valid reason not to merge these drafts.
>  
> My 2c,
> Sasha
>  
> From: Gyan Mishra <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> 
> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 4:43 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A 
> simple pathological network fragment
>  
> Hi Sasha 
>  
> In-line below 
>  
> On Thu, Nov 2, 2023 at 4:01 AM Alexander Vainshtein 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Gyan and all,
> Inline below.
>  
> Regards,
> Sasha
>  
> From: Gyan Mishra <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> 
> Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 7:09 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple 
> pathological network fragment
>  
>  
> Hi Sasha, Bruno & Stewart 
>  
> Thank you for going over my OPSDIR review in detail.
>  
> I am good with the latest updated verbiage that Bruno had given.
>  
> Comments in-line 
>  
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:41 AM Alexander Vainshtein 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Bruno,
> Lots of thanks for a prompt and very encouraging response!
>  
> Your version of the text is definitely better than mine, I am all for using 
> it.
>  
> As for where the clarifying text could be inserted, I see two options:
> · A common “Applicability Statement” section (there is no such section in the 
> draft)
> 
>        
> ·  
> 
> · A dedicated section on relationship between TI-LFA and micro-loops.
> 
>     Gyan> I think this option would  be best.  This would fix the existing 
> gap on uLoop.  I did mention but not sure if possible- as TI-LFA and uLoop 
> are tightly coupled as a overall post convergence solution is it possible to 
> combine the drafts and issue another WGLC.  (Question for authors)
>           [[Sasha]] Given the current state of the SR Micro-Loop Avoidance 
> draft 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop-15>
>  (still an individual submission at -15 version) I doubt merging TI-LFA and 
> micro-loop avoidance is a good idea.
>         Gyan> TI-LFA is a critical draft for operator SR deployments and I 
> agree getting it published asap is a good idea.  All vendors that have 
> implemented     TI-LFA  have implemented uLoop.  In reality any operator 
> deploying TI-LFA would  always deploy uLoop avoidance at the same time per 
> vendor recommendation.  The uLoop I-D  is 7 years old and  is mature as every 
> vendor that has implemented TI-LFA has also implemented uLoop,  so I think 
> this could be slam dunk to do a quick Adoption followed by expedite through 
> WGLC and publish.  The other option is combine the drafts which may or may 
> not be favorable to the WG.  
>  
> The uLoop basic concept is simple —>> building a list of adj-sid from PLR to 
> RLFA PQ node merge point with a timer set at time T1 post convergence and 
> removed when T2 timer pops.  Simple!  The solution for TI-LFA in my mind is 
> not complete without uLoop.  The major issue that Stewart pointed out is 
> related to multiple entry points or chain of P space nodes preceding the PLR 
> or multiple Q space nodes preceding the RLFA PQ node merge point is what I 
> documented in my review.  Any of those longer chain of nodes can have uLoop 
> distributed convergence cascaded delays.
>  
> TI-LFA implementations aim to solve with optimized least number of SID to 
> avoid hardware MSD issues to solve the problem using a single node-sid plus 
> maybe an adj-sid and at most 4 sid’s.  Use of node-sid yields ECMP along the 
> chain of nodes not yet converged resulting in many possible micro loops is 
> the major issue that the  hop by hop list of adj-sid’s along the post 
> convergence path solves with the uLoop draft.  
>  
> I don’t know of any other way to resolve the TI-LFA uLoop issue if 
> implemented by itself if node-sid ECMP is utilized.  One option but unlikely 
> is in case of chain of nodes exists, that TI-LFA if configured by itself w/o 
> uLoop while signaling for MSD maximum threshold, can build an adj-sid list 
> across the nodes not yet converged from PLR to PQ node merge point.  Other 
> then trying to fix TI-LFA so it can work independently of uLoop feature is to 
> do what we have been discussing in the thread about adding txt related to 
> micro loops and interaction between       TI-LFA draft and uLoop draft.
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Gyan
>  
> In any case, I defer to you and the rest of the authors to decide what, if 
> anything should be done for clarifying the relationship between TI-LFA and 
> micro-loops.
>  
>  
> Regards,
> Sasha
>  
> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> 
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2023 3:27 PM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>; Stewart Bryant 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple 
> pathological network fragment
>  
> Sasha,
>  
> Thanks for the summary and the constructive proposal.
> Speaking for myself, this makes sense and I agree.
>  
> Ø  TI-LFA is a local operation applied by the PLR when it detects failure of 
> one of its local links. As such,  it does not affect:
> 
> o   Micro-loops that appear – or do not appear –on the paths to the 
> destination that do not pass thru TI-LFA paths
> 
>  
> As an editorial comment, depending on where such text would be inserted, I 
> would propose the following change:
> OLD: Micro-loops that appear – or do not appear –
> NEW: Micro-loops that appear – or do not appear – as part of the distributed 
> IGP convergence [RFC5715]
>  
> Motivation: some reader could wrongly understand that such micro-loops are 
> caused by TI-LFA
>  
> Thanks,
> Regards,
> --Bruno
>  
> Orange Restricted
> From: Alexander Vainshtein <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> 
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2023 4:21 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno INNOV/NET <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>; Stewart Bryant <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple pathological 
> network fragment
> Importance: High
>  
> Bruno, Stewart and all,
> I think that most of the things about TI-LFA and micro-loops have been said 
> already (if in a slightly different context)  and are mainly self-evident.
> However, I share the feeling that somehow the relationship between TI-LFA and 
> micro-loop avoidance has become somewhat muddled.
>  
> Therefore, I would like to suggest adding some text to the TI-LFA draft that 
> clarifies this relationship, e.g., along the following lines:
> 1.       TI-LFA is a local operation applied by the PLR when it detects 
> failure of one of its local links. As such,  it does not affect:
> 
> a.       Micro-loops that appear – or do not appear –on the paths to the 
> destination that do not pass thru TI-LFA paths
> 
>                                                                               
>                                 i.      As explained in RFC 5714, such 
> micro-loops may result in the traffic not reaching the PLR and therefore not 
> following TI-LFA paths
> 
>                                                                               
>                                ii.      Segment Routing may be used for 
> prevention of such micro-loops as described in the micro-loop avoidance draft
> 
> b.       Micro-loops that appear – or do not appear - when the failed link is 
> repaired (aside: the need for this line is based on personal experience☹)
> 
> 2.       TI-LFA paths are loop-free. What’s more, they follow the 
> post-convergence paths, and, therefore, not subject to micro-loops due to 
> difference in the IGP convergence times of the nodes thru which they pass
> 
> 3.       TI-LFA paths are applied from the moment the PLR detects failure of 
> a local link and until IGP convergence at the PLR is completed. Therefore, 
> early (relative to the other nodes) IGP convergence at the PLR and the 
> consecutive ”early” release of TI-LFA paths may cause micro-loops, especially 
> if these paths have been computed using the methods described in Section 6.2, 
> 6.3 or 6.4 of the draft. One of the possible ways to prevent such micro-loops 
> is local convergence delay (RFC 8333).
> 
> 4.       TI-LFA procedures are complementary to application of any micro-loop 
> avoidance procedures in the case of link or node failure:
> 
> a.       Link or node failure requires some urgent action to restore the 
> traffic that passed thru the failed resource. TI-LFA paths are pre-computed 
> and pre-installed and therefore suitable for urgent recovery
> 
> b.       The paths used in the micro-loop avoidance procedures typically 
> cannot be pre-computed.
> 
>  
> Hopefully these notes would be useful.
>  
> Regards,
> Sasha
>  
> From: rtgwg <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On 
> Behalf Of [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2023 7:34 PM
> To: Stewart Bryant <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple 
> pathological network fragment
>  
> Hi Stewart,
>  
> I agree with you on the technical points, so the first part of your email up 
> to “So I think”.
>  
> But I don’t quite follow why you want to mix IGP Convergence issues with this 
> Fast ReRoute Solution.
> To quote RFC 5714 « IP Fast Reroute Framework”
>  
> In order to reduce packet disruption times to a duration commensurate
>    with the failure detection times, two mechanisms may be required:
>  
>    a.  A mechanism for the router(s) adjacent to the failure to rapidly
>        invoke a repair path, which is unaffected by any subsequent re-
>        convergence.
>  
>    b.  In topologies that are susceptible to micro-loops, a micro-loop
>        control mechanism may be required [RFC5715 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5715>].
>  
>    Performing the first task without the second may result in the repair
>    path being starved of traffic and hence being redundant.
>  
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5714#section-4
>  
> I would assume that you agree with the above (as you are an author of this 
> RFC and my guess would be that you wrote that text)
>  
> My point is that there are two different mechanisms involved, in two 
> different time periods:
> -     Fast ReRoute (“a”): this is the scope of 
> draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa
> o   Timing: from detection time , to start of the IGP convergence
> -     IGP Micro-loop avoidance (“b”)
> o   Timing: from start of IGP convergence to end of IGP convergence
>  
> The scope of draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa is FRR / “a”. IGP 
> micro-loop is out of scope. Other documents are proposing solutions for this. 
> (and for those Micro-loop documents, FRR is similarly out of scope).
>  
> Personally I agree with you that both mechanisms are needed. But I think that 
> this is already highlighted in RFC 5714, and that this is no different than 
> RFC 7490 (RLFA). Therefore, I don’t see why the outcome/text should be 
> different. Hence my proposition to reuse the text from RFC 7490 (RLFA). I 
> find it adequate. You wrote it so probably find it adequate.
>  
> On a side note, RFC5715, that you also wrote, seems to already cover what you 
> are asking for. Quoting the abstract, it
>       provides a summary of the causes and consequences of
>    micro-loops and enables the reader to form a judgement on whether
>    micro-looping is an issue that needs to be addressed in specific
>    networks.
>  
> Note that this RFC5715 is already cited in the proposed text.
>  
> PS: If you were ready to wrote a 5715bis, I would support this.
>  
> Best regards,
> --Bruno
>  
>  
> Orange Restricted
> From: Stewart Bryant <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2023 1:48 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno INNOV/NET <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: Stewart Bryant <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; 
> rtgwg-chairs <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple pathological 
> network fragment
>  
> Hi Bruno
>  
> I was thinking about this some more. It is something that was recognised in 
> the early days, but somewhat swept aside.
>  
> The case that Gyan bought up was an ECMP case, but I fear that the case is 
> more common and I think we should characterise it as part of the text rather 
> that giving the impression it is unusual.
>  
> I think the problem occurs whenever there are two or more nodes between the 
> point of packet entry and the failure.
>  
> CE1 - R1 - R2 - R3 - R4 -/- R5 - CE2
>       |                     |
>       R6 - R7 - R8 - R9 — R10
>  
> The normal path CE1-CE2 is via R2
>  
> When R4-R5 fails it is trivial to see how the repair works with R7 as the 
> entry into Q space.
>  
> However unless R1, R2,  R3 converge in that order there will be microloops 
> for traffic entering via any of those three nodes.
>  
> So I think we can say that unless the PLR is only receiving traffic to be 
> protected directly or from its immediate neighbour it is not guaranteed that 
> there  will not be micro loops that are not addressable by the propose 
> strategy of aligning the repair path with the post convergence path.
>  
> Now thinking about the text you have below, I think we need to write in in 
> terms of - Unless the operator is certain that no micro loops will form over 
> any path the protected traffic will traverse between entry to the network and 
> arrival at the PLR a micro loop avoidance method MUST be deployed. Of course 
> I think that it would be helpful to the operator community for the text to 
> provide some guidance on how to ascertain whether there is a danger of the 
> formation of micro loops.
>  
> I would note that the long chains of nodes show in the example above were 
> probably not present in the test topologies which as I remember were all 
> national scale provider networks, but unless we provide guidance otherwise 
> Ti-LFA could reasonably be deployed in edge networks and in the case of cell 
> systems these are often ring topologies.
>  
> So I think we need to agree (as a WG) on the constrains that we are prepared 
> to specify in the text and the degree of warning we need to provide to the 
> operator community and then we can polish the text below.
>  
> Best regards
>  
> Stewart
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> On 16 Oct 2023, at 17:25, [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
>  
> Hi Stewart,
>  
> Please see inline
>  
>  
> Orange Restricted
> From: Stewart Bryant <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 2:08 PM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; rtgwg-chairs 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; 
> [email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Cc: Stewart Bryant <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa : A simple pathological 
> network fragment
>  
> During the operations directorate early review of 
> draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa 
> Gyan Mishra points to a simple pathological network fragment that I think 
> deserves wider discussion.
>  
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-11-opsdir-early-mishra-2023-08-25/
>  
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-11-opsdir-early-mishra-2023-08-25>
>  
> I am not aware of any response to the RTGWG by the draft authors concerning 
> the review comment and I cannot see obvious new text addressing this concern.
> 
> The fragment is as follows
> 
> CE1 –R1- R2-/-R3-CE2
>      |         |
>      R4 – R5 -R6
> 
> In the pre converged network R4 is ECMP CE2 via R5 (cost 4) and via R1 (cost 
> also 4).
> 
> We can easily build a TI-LFA repair path from R2 under link failure to CE2 
> (so long as we remember that R4 is an ECMP path to CE2), but the problem 
> occurs during convergence. If R1 converges before R4, R4 may ECMP packets 
> addressed to CE2 back to R1 in a micro loop. Meanwhile since no packets for 
> R3 are reaching R2 the Ti-LFA repair is not doing anything useful. 
> 
> The Ti-LFA text leads the reader to conclude that it is a loop-free solution, 
> but gives no guidance on how to determine when this assumption breaks down. 
> There is an informational reference to 
> draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop, but this short individual draft 
> does little in the way of helping the reader determine when  loop avoidance 
> strategy needs to be deployed and the loop-free approach it describes does 
> not seem to be fully developed.
>  
> I am worried that proceeding with the Ti-LFA draft without noting that there 
> is a real risk that simple network fragments can micoloop, and providing a 
> fully formed mitigation strategy is a disservice to the operator community 
> given the industry interest in Ti-LDA and the insidious nature of unexpected 
> micro loop network transients, I am wondering what the view of the working 
> group is on how to proceed.
>  
> One approach would be for the Ti-LFA draft to incorporate detailed guidance 
> on how to determine the risk of a micro loop in a specific operator network, 
> and to provide specific mitigation advice. Another approach would be to  
> reference a developed loop avoidance strategy and recommending its preemptive 
> deployment. Another approach would be to make 
> draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop a normative reference and tie the 
> fate of the two drafts. Another approach would be to elaborate on the risks 
> and their manifestations but declare it a currently unsolved problem. I am 
> sure there are other options that the WG may formulate.
>  
> What is the opinion of the working group on how we should proceed with 
> draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa when considering the possible 
> formation of micro loops?
>  
> FRR takes place between the failure (detection) and the IGP reconvergence. 
> Those are two consecutive steps that the WG has so far addressed with 
> different solutions and documents.
> That’s not new and that’s not specific to TI-LFA. E.g., that’s applicable to 
> RLFA.
>  
> Would the below text, taken verbatim from RFC 7490 (RLFA), work for you? Or 
> would you say that the text is not good enough?
> “When the network reconverges, micro-loops [RFC5715 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5715>] can form due to
>    transient inconsistencies in the forwarding tables of different
>    routers.  If it is determined that micro-loops are a significant
>    issue in the deployment, then a suitable loop-free convergence
>    method, such as one of those described in [RFC5715 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5715>], [RFC6976 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6976>], or
>    [ULOOP-DELAY 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7490#ref-ULOOP-DELAY>], should be 
> implemented.”
>  
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7490#section-10
>  
> Of course, we could update the list of informative references.
> E.g., by adding another informative reference to 
> draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop and by removing informative 
> references to [RFC6976] and [ULOOP-DELAY] which are probably outdated.
>  
> --Bruno
>  
>  
> - Stewart
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