South Asia Citizens Wire | 16 June, 2006 | Dispatch No. 2259
[1] India, Pakistan and Kashmir: Stabilising a Cold Peace (International Crisis Group) [2] Pakistan: TV Debates Take on Anti-Women Islamic Laws (Zofeen Ebrahim) [3] Sinister Hindutva plan to repeat Gujarat in J&K (Editorial, Kashmir Times) [4] India: Alchemy of Intolerance (Achyut Yagnik) [5] India: How genuine was the terrorist attack on the RSS Head Quarters in Nagpur? (Kuldip Nayar) [6] India: Convention "Myths, Lies and The Narmada Betrayal" (New Delhi, 18 June 2006) [7] Public Forum: War and Peace in South Asia (Vancouver, 24 June 2006) ___ [1] International Crisis Group Asia Briefing No.51 15 June 2006 INDIA, PAKISTAN AND KASHMIR: STABILISING A COLD PEACE the full report as a PDF file is available at: http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/getfile.cfm?id=2408&tid=4173&l=1 _____ [2] Inter Press Service June 15, 2006 PAKISTAN: TV DEBATES TAKE ON ANTI-WOMEN ISLAMIC LAWS Zofeen Ebrahim - Asia Media Forum* KARACHI, Jun 15 (IPS) - Filmmaker Hasan Zaidi is an optimist. He is sure that debates currently being conducted over a private TV channel could help see the repeal of Pakistan's Hudood Ordinances -- a set of laws based on Islamic decrees, criticised as being anti-women. ''It will change things," the young filmmaker predicts confidently, referring to the ordinances that cover a range of crimes, the most controversial being one that requires a woman to provide four witnesses to prove rape, or face charges of adultery -- punishable by being stoned to death. But the debates, conducted as part of the Zara Sochiye (Just Think) programme of Geo TV network, is the first serious challenge to the much reviled Hudood Ordinances, introduced 27 years ago by military dictator Gen. Zia-ul-Haq. ''We've taken a good, big risk but it is worth taking,'' said a Geo spokesperson. ''The responsibility is entirely our own, and we are very aware of that.'' The network has taken pains to convince people that the purpose behind the TV campaign is to provide "food for thought" and "highlight some problems with the ordinances". It is stressed that there is "no American hand, no government hand, no NGO hand or any other hand". It is natural for many in this Islamic nation to look at the campaign with wariness. General elections have been set for 2007 and there are simmering internal conflicts, compounded by anti-U.S. sentiments that are at an all-time high. Across the border in Afghanistan, the Taliban is slowly regaining a stronghold in some key areas. People have received the programme well, if for no other reason than that Geo TV has had the courage to bell the cat. ''I know some sceptics believe this campaign to have the backing of the government -- so that an atmosphere can be created for rethinking these laws. But even if that is so, it is an important precedent," is how Zaidi sees it. Zulfiqar Shah, a labour activist, is one cynic who looks at the campaign as an exercise in futility. "Most such campaigns are coming from outside (donor driven) and till something happens inside, till we have a sound political basis and people have a say in government policies, laws such as these will remain." "This is the first time that there is such an open and public debate on the laws -- previously, people and institutions, other than a handful of rights-based organisations and women rights activists, have shied away from even talking about such a blatantly discriminatory and shameful law, fearing the religious extremists,'' says Bushra Gohar, a rights activist. Gohar hopes that, if nothing else, the debate would "at least educate the people about how the ordinances have reduced women's status in the country and have legalised open and blatant discrimination against them in the name of religion." For 27 years, the draconian laws have been opposed by political parties, rights organisations, women's groups and even the legal fraternity. Yet, they stubbornly remain on the statute books as they are based on Islamic decrees. Enforced by Gen. Haq in 1979, as part of an Islamisation process, without public or parliamentary debate, the ordinances were supposed to work in tandem with the country's secular legal system. Subsequent governments tried to do away with them but could not get past the religious right. Even President Gen. Pervez Musharraf has shied away from attempting repeal. Disturbingly, in this televised debates, the raucous voices of religious scholars are heard over arguments made by women's groups and recommendations from legal eagles that are against the ordinances. The network's approach is to ride with the current. Says a Geo representative: "Our tag line asks -- Hudood Allah par behas nahin! Kya Hudood Ordinances Islami hain?" (There is no debate on the decrees of God but are the Hudood Ordinances Islamic?") The decision not to give voice to women and rights organisations may be "strategic" as they claim. But the campaign, while quite vivacious, is conspicuous by the absence of female religious scholars. "It seems as if we don't have any women religious scholars who may also have a point of view," commented Samita Ahmed, an architect, at one of the debates. One of the programme producers claims that half the battle has already been won. "Geo has brought various religious scholars to, at least, accept that the ordinances, as they are -- are not comprehensive or reflective of the Hudood set by the Quran and Sunnah." Zaidi views it differently. "Geo has done a good job of exposing the shallowness of the arguments of the ordinances' proponents such as Mufti Muneebur Rehman. Hopefully, people can see their merit, or lack of it, for themselves." "I can completely understand the sensitivities involved in questioning widely misunderstood religious dogma but I hope it does not mean a fait accompli amendment as opposed to a repeal, which is what really should happen to the Hudood Ordinances," adds Zaidi, saying the content of some of the interviews covers this particular weakness well. "We leave it to the people to carry the debate further in whatever way they choose to. Good or bad, it's a conscious decision we have taken, to keep it a debate,'' said the Geo representative. "Obviously, an electronic media campaign of this sort is positive as people get to view and listen to both sides of the debate. However, in the present political set-up, with the support of the mullahs crucial to the government, it is difficult to say whether it will have an immediate impact on our legislators who are in a position to have the law repealed," says Ayesha Azfar, a journalist. "I support the campaign of Geo in as much as the campaign has started a dialogue and debate which was necessary," explains Justice Nasir Aslam Zahid, who, in 1997, had recommended a repeal of the ordinances in his famous 'Report of the Commission of Inquiry for Women'. "A large number of issues are taboo in our society for no valid reason. But with the great advances in the field of electronic media, it is not possible to keep the people ignorant about various so-called sacred issues and keep a ban on their discussion." His words are endorsed by Farah Moazzam, an Islamic scholar who, while not in favour of a repeal, agrees that an amendment is called for. ''The power of the media can never be underestimated. Politically, however, it may not serve much purpose unless there are hands behind this campaign or Pakistan miraculously becomes a true democracy and starts valuing the views of people.'' (*The Asia Media Forum is a space for journalists to share insights on issues related to the media and their profession, as well as stories, information and opinions on democracy, development and human rights in Asia.) (END/2006) _____ [3] Kashmir Times June 16, 2006 Editorial A MURDEROUS PROPOSITION SINISTER HINDUTVA PLAN TO REPEAT GUJARAT IN J&K A day after the state BJP president repeated the offer of a prize-money of Rs. 1 lakh for a militant killed "in self-defence" the BJP leaders now in Jammu, in connection with the so-called Doda Satyagrah, have come up with a novel suggestion reminiscent of Hitler's "final solution" to the Jewish problem. They have held the Congress government responsible for the present Kashmir imbroglio, for having taken the Kashmir issue to the UN as well as for having failed to crush the present insurgency with a firm hand. Since repeated governments of this state -- of the governor, the NC and the PDP-Congress coalition -- have failed to tackle the situation in the last 17 years, they have suggested that J&K be handed over to the present Gujarat government of Narendra Modi for some sort of a 'final solution' to the on-going problem. Of course, one need not elaborate on what they meant by adopting the Gujarat model of which the world had some taste in the months following the sad incident at Godhra railway station. In Gujarat, however, the overwhelming Hindu mojority, aided by the state machinery in their control, had carried out some sort of a genocide -- "organised genocide" of the Muslims, in the words of none but the veteran RSS leader, Nanaji Deshmukh. In J&K, however, their task is quite different and far more difficult. Here the non-Muslims constitute a minuscule minority in militancy-hit regions of the state, while the militants are well-armed, organised and entrenched. In order to repeat a Gujarat in those districts the state government, obviously in cahuts with the centre, will have to seek the help of the state administrative machinery and deploy the police, the para-military forces and when necessary, the army for carrying out the dreaded genocide -- ethnic cleansing of the overwhelming majority, which has never been tried so far any where in the world. Proponents of this vicious suggestion should remember that 'genocide' is now considered an international crime and quite a few leaders of former Yugoslavia, including its former president, Milosevic, were tried for having indulged in it. Besides, just think of the enormity of the crime involved, the number of people who have to be murdered or maimed to virtually reverse the population ratio and to permanently silence the present majority with exemplary acts of repression. Have the advocates of this suggestion thought of the likely repercussion of such cruelties in the rest of India, on the much-vaunted secular fabric of our society? How are the persecuted community going to re-act to the planned genocide? Look at the experience of the Russians in Chechnya and of the Western occupation forces in Iraq. State terrorism always sparks off wide-spread individual terrorism to which few states have so far succeeded in evolving a defence. Are we prepared for such wide-spread and continued militancy all over the country, bringing our present pace of progress to a virtual halt? Can we expect the international community to remain a mute spectator, while we indulge in mass murder? It did not stay quiet over Bosnia, Kossovo or Somalia? Besides, what about the long-term consequences of waging a war on a section of our own citizens? Till date not a single Muslim from India has been found active in any international terror organisation. That is because, despite a few occasional aberrations, we have maintained an inclusive social ethos. The more we talk of the Gujarat pattern of solving the communal problem the more we weaken our social foundation and antagonise the largest minority. Like the Blacks of the USA the 20 crore Muslims of India cannot be got rid of. In our own interest of peace and progress India has to integrate them within its plural society. Let Gujarat be forgotten like a bad dream that must not haunt us in future. Unfortunately, not many so-called secular parties have seriously come forward to face frontally the murderous proposals made by the champions of Hindutva. _____ [4] The Times of India June 16, 2006 ALCHEMY OF INTOLERANCE Achyut Yagnik The image of Gujarat in the rest of India and the self-image of Gujaratis are diametrically opposite. After the events of 2002, the rest of India perceives Gujaratis as a highly intole-rant and violent lot; but at home Gujaratis think that they are becoming more assertive and are ready to fight for their rights and for the development of their state. The recent controversy around Fanaa and the impassioned boycott of Aamir Khan has once again reinforced these opposite images. There was a time when the outside image and self-image were identical. The face of Gujarat for the rest of India was its merchants. At home the hegemony of the merchant community transformed local ethos into a mercantile ethos resulting in a self-image of a peace-loving and accommodative people, normally avoiding conflict and finding the middle path. Mahatma Gandhi built on this foundation, developing satyagraha as a medium of protest where non-violence and negotiation were the cornerstones. But changing political economy, social dynamics and politics of culture have contributed to the metamorphosis of Gujarati ethos into its present cocktail of Hindutva, parochialism and violence where the space for debate and dialogue has disappeared. The first assertion of Gujarati identity after Independence was the Mahagujarat movement for a separate state. This movement led to the bifurcation of the bilingual state of Bombay and establishment of Gujarat in 1960. Communal riots followed a few years later in 1969. Though these were the first large-scale riots after Independence the episode hardly created ripples outside the state and the following decade remained peaceful. In 1980s, violence erupted again when medical students of Ahmedabad started an anti-reservation agitation. The first agitation in 1981 targeted Dalits and in its second phase in 1985, though the issue was quota for OBCs, the victims were again Dalits and later Muslims. >From mid-1980s, Hindutva forces gradually perfected the politics of yatras and were able to mobilise various sections of Hindu society, including OBCs and Dalits (who were earlier alienated by the two anti-reservation riots), under the banner of the Ramjanambhoomi movement. Parallel to the yatras of sangh parivar another agitation was taking shape under Narmada Bachao Andolan, first for just and proper rehabilitation of Narmada dam oustees and later for scrapping the dam. To counter this agitation, which was internationalised, successive ruling parties of Gujarat popularised the slogan of deve-lopment of Gujarat and the Sardar Sarovar project as lifeline of Gujarat. As the state had experienced three years of severe drought, it was not just the urban middle classes but also the rural population who increasingly viewed the Narmada project as the only solution to overcome water scarcity and to ensure development of Gujarat. In such a climate, Chimanbhai Patel and BJP emerged as an alternative to Congress and formed a coalition government. It was essentially the combination of two seemingly contradictory agendas - Hindutva and Gujarati parochialism. While sangh parivar consolidated Hindutva for its own political gains, Chimanbhai sharpened Gujarati parochialism where pro-Narmada dam mobilisation provided political capital. Through the twists and turns of state politics and shifts at the Centre, selling the dream of bountiful water from Narmada to people of Gujarat continued in early 1990s, as did violent Hindutva mobilisa-tion. Significantly, the generation that was coming of age then internalised this potent mix of violence, Gujarati chauvinism and Hindutva rhetoric. In the 1995 assembly elections, BJP emerged as the majority party and formed government, inheriting Gujarati pride in the Sardar Sarovar project as a legacy of previous regimes. With the flag of Hindutva in one hand and banner of Sardar Sarovar in the other they continued to march on. After the rout in the 2000 panchayat elections, the BJP high command decided to change guard to prepare for the 2002 assembly polls. Narendra Modi, who had been general secretary of Gujarat BJP in 1980s, was brought in. For Modi, the Narmada issue was not relevant as Supreme Court had given the green signal for completing construction after a delay of many years. But he developed the idea of Gujarati pride that the project embodied and soon after becoming chief minister he coined the slogan 'Our Gujarat, Unique Gujarat'. Later, when he was criticised for his inaction, and even complicity, during the violence of 2002 he deflected accusations as attempts to tarnish the pride of 'five crore Gujaratis'. Gujarati media made its contribution by echoing this sentiment, projecting Gujarati 'asmita' or identity and giving no space for dissent of any kind. Modi's demagogy paid off and ensured political success for him, but in the process Gujarati parochialism became the order of the day. This is why Aamir Khan's championing of rights of those displaced by the Narmada dam has touched a raw nerve and intensified the persecution mania whipped up by the political elite, local media and academics. Neither Hindutva nor Gujarati chauvinism shows any signs of abating in the foreseeable future - any comment on this will only be interpreted as an attempt to denigrate the fair name of Gujarat. The writer is a journalist and human rights activist. _____ [5] Deccan Herald June 16, 2006 POLICE FARCE DRAMA IN REAL LIFE By Kuldip Nayar How genuine was the terrorist attack on the RSS Head Quarters in Nagpur? A FACT-FINDING team from Maharashtra has questioned the authenticity of terrorists' attack on the RSS headquarters at Nagpur earlier in the month. The team believes that the killing of three assailants was a put up show by the police to get a pat on the back for fighting against terrorists. The police never cooperated with the team. Even when it wanted to read the First Information Report (FIR), it was refused. The police behaviour does create doubts. But it is becoming a familiar pattern. We know from our experience how the police have staged false encounters to eliminate people, especially those against whom they have no evidence to pursue in a court of law. The attack on the RSS headquarters may well be a thought out plan to kill the three. There is no reason to disbelieve the fact-finding team's version because the members comprising it are known social workers and human rights activists. The fact that the police did not extend them any help for the probe is all the more reason to believe that they had something to hide. The letter which the police have written to the team before entertaining its request for assistance is a questionnaire which is primarily directed against the team and its composition. I am not surprised to find that the attack story is doubted. A few years ago, two persons were killed at the Ansal Plaza complex basement in New Delhi. The police version was that they had been killed in an encounter. A doctor, who was an eye-witness, said that the police brought "the terrorists" in their van and bumped them off. I filed a petition with the National Human Rights Commission questioning the police version. The NHRC merely forwarded the complaint to Delhi Police which naturally confirmed its men's version. What is the purpose of such probes? The commission should have appointed some independent authority. Understandably, the RSS has not said anything. It fits into their propaganda that terrorists are roaming all over India since the exit of the Atal Behari Vajpayee's government. Therefore, the announcement by Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi to give Rs 10 lakh to the policemen who killed the three assailants is not a surprise. Modi's announcement is followed by another BJP chief minister from Madhya Pradesh. Shivraj Singh Chauhan's reward is also for a similar amount. How are they justified in announcing rewards for protecting the RSS headquarters which is in another state, Maharashtra? They may have wanted to placate the RSS leadership or to make it public that the building at Nagpur is the BJP's Vatican. But what the two have done amounts to interference in the affairs of Maharashtra. Law and order is a state subject and, according to the constitution, even the Centre has no say in it. Trying to interfere in the affairs of another state is a serious matter and Parliament should take notice of it. Today it is the reward; tomorrow it can take another shape. The BJP chief ministers may take upon themselves the responsibility of protecting the RSS headquarters and sending policemen from their states as guards. Look at this matter from another angle. If Modi and Chauhan are justified in announcing the reward, Maharashtra chief minister can say that his state will honour the odd policemen who protected the Muslims during the pogrom in Gujarat. Things can go still farther. One state may begin to commend or condemn the law and order situation in another state. The two BJP chief ministers are treading on thin ice. Modi's reaction to the killing of some Gujarati tourists in Kashmir was equally outlandish. Modi said that Kashmiri goods should be boycotted. It is a verdict worse than that of a Kangaroo court. Some terrorists aim to disturb the tourist season in Kashmir. Modi is playing into their hands. They do not want any Kashmiri to do anything with the rest of India. How is an average Kashmiri responsible for the misdeeds of terrorists who are probably not even Kashmiri? Modi's remedy to punish the innocent Kashmiri for the murder by the terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir is pernicious. This kind of reprisal was heard only during Hitler's Nazi regime in Germany. What the BJP general secretary Vinay Katiyar said and rationalised afterwards beats all. He announced a prize of Rs 1 lakh for any civilian who kills a militant. The pressure by the BJP leaders forced him to make his observation equivocal. But there is no doubt that he said so. This is what is on record: "We all want to fight terrorism. It is because of this that we made an announcement today that anyone who kills a terrorist- civilians, we are not talking of security forces -- will get Rs 1 lakh" Left to Katiyar, he would convert Jammu and Kashmir into a theatre of civil war. His observation only underlines the fascist tendencies that some leaders in the BJP have. All this is a sad reflection on New Delhi. When Modi says and does anything illegal and gets away with it, where is the centre's responsibility to uphold the constitution? It means that the Manmohan Singh government has come to adopt convenience as its policy, not compliance with what the rule of law demands. _____ [6] "MYTHS, LIES AND THE NARMADA BETRAYAL" on Sunday 18th June 2006 10:30 am- 4:00 pm Indian Social Institute 3rd floor auditorium 10 Lodhi Institutional Area (behind Sai Baba Mandir), New Delhi The day will be structured around 3 main sessions: 10:30-11:00 am: Inauguration 11:00-12:00 pm FAILURE OF GOVERNANCE IN THE NARMADA This session will include exposing the myths and lies, with testimonies from the Valley, and interventions by academicians and policy specialists. The session will cover: - the silence and 'games' of the government, including failed responsibility - the denial of the Group of Minister's report: why? - the modus operandi of the Oversight Group and its shortcomings 12:00 - 1 pm: FAILURE OF LAW AND VIOLATION OF JUSTICE This session will reveal how the Supreme Court orders have been flouted and how the SC has also succumbed to political pressure in complete violation of the law. It will also discuss the continued denial of justice not just by the Courts, but by all government agencies, including the case of recent evictions in Delhi. 1-2 pm: Lunch 2 - 3:00 pm: THE POLITICS OF DISPLACEMENT The politics behind the Sardar Sarovar dam are indeed complex and ugly. A panel of select representatives of political parties and NBA activists will share their views and discuss how human rights and the Constitution are violated for meeting petty political interests, not just in the Narmada, but in all projects involving displacement and evictions. 3:00 - 4:00 pm: Questions and Open Discussion We request you to participate in this convention and express your views on the issue, also keeping in mind the broader implications of, and connections with, large-scale displacement and forced evictions that are taking place all over the country. It is important for us, more than ever before, to come together, join forces, and develop effective strategies to counter the anti-people and undemocratic powers that be. We look forward to your active participation and support. in solidarity, Vijayan MJ, Shivani Chaudhry, Rajendra Ravi, Shree Prakash (on behalf of Delhi Solidarity Group for NBA) For more details, please contact: 9868 114470, 9818 030423, 98682 00316, 9868 165471 Context: Dear Friends, As you know, the struggle of the Narmada Bachao Andolan (NBA) reached a high point in March-April with the month long dharna and hunger strike in Delhi. Despite three activists putting their lives on the line for justice, despite the Group of Ministers' report on failed rehabilitation, and despite scathing evidence against the lies of the MP government, both the Supreme Court and the central and state governments have chosen to ignore the truth and side with the powerful pro-dam lobby thereby silently sanctioning the devastation of the Narmada Valley and over 35,000 families. The way Manmohan Singh and the UPA government subverted the law and succumbed to political pressures, shocked many. The report of the three Ministers' team the first of its kind to the Narmada valley vindicated what the NBA has been saying about the failure of rehabilitation, but was conveniently swept under the rug, while Manmohan Singh refused to take action or stand by his Cabinet colleagues; findings. Worse still, the Supreme Court after postponing its decision for two months, violated its own former orders and gave a clean chit to the illegality and injustice being perpetuated by the ongoing construction of the dam. The one alarming message that emerged from the Supreme Court's order was an assurance to governments that they could fearlessly continue violating the law, even when such a violation was entirely unconstitutional and jeopardized the lives and livelihoods of thousands. The last eyewash in this undemocratic process was Manmohan Singh's appointment of the Oversight Group headed by V.K. Shunglu which is merely a means to delay and deny justice to the people. While the construction of the dam continues in violation of the Narmada Water Disputes Tribunal Award and Supreme Court orders of 2000 and 2005, and while the Group of Ministers has already clearly reported non-compliance with rehabilitation laws, the survey being conducted by the Oversight Group under the auspices of the NSSO has little purpose, apart from allowing the construction of the dam to be a fate accompli. The Shunglu Committee is almost done with its survey in MP and is expected to submit its report by 30 June 2006. However, the Committee's mode of operation and its survey methodology have been highly problematic. Surveys have not been exhaustive or comprehensive. Instead they have been carried out very hurriedly, in few areas, and without adequate consultation with the people. Ignoring the suggestions of the NBA, the Committee did not visit Gujarat and Maharashtra, which are also affected by the dam; neither did it agree to submit an interim report of its findings. By the time the Committee completes its final report and by the time the Supreme Court reconvenes on 10 July to take stock of the situation, the dam would have reached 121.92 metres and, by then, the monsoon would have intensified in the Valley. Neither the Court, nor the Oversight Group can control the rains. A normal monsoon would spell doom to thousands of adivasi and farmer families, would submerge their houses, fields, and villages, and would destroy rich archeological treasures and forests. The situation is indeed grim. With every democratic process failing to provide them with a just recourse, representatives of the affected communities from the Narmada Valley will be coming to Delhi on June 18 and 19 to stage a dharna at Jantar Mantar, and to once again, raise their voices against this ongoing injustice, perverse political posturing, and complete failure of law and governance. We, the Delhi Solidarity Group for the NBA feel that the gravity of the current situation calls for a larger discussion on the issue with civil society, social movements, representatives of political parties, academicians, and other supporters. It in this context that we would like to invite you to join us for a Convention as mentioned above. _____ [7] In conjuction with the World Peace Forum being held in Vancouver SANSAD invites the members of the community to a PUBLIC FORUM: WAR AND PEACE IN SOUTH ASIA Saturday, June 24 Langara College, 100 West 49th Ave, Vancouver (Canada) Room: A 122 A 2 pm to 6 pm Admission Free The US, in "stretegic partnership" with India, offers it a nuclear treaty; intensifies arms race in the region. In Nepal the 200-year old monarchy is facing its end as a result of people's struggles. The conflict in Kashmir simmers but shows hope of resolution. Pakistan is deeply troubled with the US dictated bombings in Waziristan. Ruthless suppression of the struggle for autonomy in Balochistan. Peace process in Srilanka threatened. Presentations on simmering conflicts in South Asia, and the Quest for Peace with Justice by: Aziz Baloch, Hassan Gardezi, Imran Munir, Haider Nizamani, L. Pahmayohan, Promod Puri, Sam Samarakoon, Abi Sharma, Hari Sharma, Yoga Yogendran Open, Interactive discussion by the members of the community Organized by South Asian Network for Secularism and Democracy sponsored by Langara College Continuing Studies Department. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Buzz on the perils of fundamentalist politics, on matters of peace and democratisation in South Asia. SACW is an independent & non-profit citizens wire service run since 1998 by South Asia Citizens Web: www.sacw.net/ SACW archive is available at: bridget.jatol.com/pipermail/sacw_insaf.net/ DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed in materials carried in the posts do not necessarily reflect the views of SACW compilers. _______________________________________________ Sacw mailing list [email protected] http://insaf.net/mailman/listinfo/sacw_insaf.net
