On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Dr. David Kirkby<david.kir...@onetel.net> wrote: > > William Stein wrote: >> Here is a talk I gave that was about many of the many features Magma >> has that Sage doesn't have: >> http://wstein.org/talks/20090609-sage_and_magma/ >> >> Below I'll make a few remarks just because they occurred to me. I'm >> not trying to disagree with anything you wrote. >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Bill Hart<goodwillh...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> Disadvantages: >>> * It is not as widely used (yet). >> >> It might be worth keeping in mind that Python has a much much wider >> usage base than Mathematica and Matlab, and that Sage can be viewed as >> just a "python library". > > It's interesting if you do a search for Mathematica on job sites like > http://www.monster.com/ and http://www.jobsite.co.uk you will find > very few jobs mentioning Mathematica skills. MATLAB and Labview are > quite common, but Mathematica is not. > > On jobsite.co.uk > > Python 85 > MATLAB 76 > Labview 20 > Mathematica: 6 (but 3 are repeat jobs, one is for Wolfram) > > I don't believe Mathematica is used as much in industry as Wolfram > Research would suggest. In my field, engineering, I've never seen any > job want it, despite me seeing some pie chart from WRI that shows > engineering is its biggest field of use - more than mathematics. > > Outside academia, I don't think there is much demand for Mathematica. > >>> * There is not a support line IT Services can ring up in the event of >>> difficulties installing it on University systems. >> >> But note that there is a mailing list and irc chat room that IT >> Services can get help from. > > But companies like software where there is professional support which > they pay for. Some will not use it unless such support is available.
True. As a matter of fact, I've personally had three organizations/people request to pay for support for Sage. None of them wanted *phone* support though. Note that two of those organizations that I just mentioned in fact *did* end up paying for some Sage support -- so Sage also does have paid support available. It's just not formalized in a contract at present. There was a third person who asked to pay for support, but when I wrote back asking *what* he wanted in return that we didn't alreayd provide for free, he couldn't seem to think of anything. > I was dealing with an agency recently, who was critical of a large > company for using free software (Wireshark, which is GPL'ed). I pointed > out to him that there is simply nothing better for the task, but he did > have the perception that it is free, so can't be much good. > > Wireshark does in fact have commercial support > http://www.cacetech.com/products/sharknet.html?utm_source=Wireshark&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=sharknet&utm_content=sharknet&utm_campaign=Wireshark_Product > > starting at $599 for the basic package, $1199 for the premium package > and going up to $17,500 for 16-25 users. > > Some of their developers offer support on a paid for basis, but there is > plenty of free support too. > >> It might also be worth noting that in the entire history of the Sage >> project, nobody has ever once asked online or to me personally for a >> phone conversation to help them with anything related to Sage. I.e., >> nobody has ever written to sage-support or me personally and said "I >> would like phone support. Is there anybody here who would help?" > > There might be advantages to actually offing a 'premier service' with > guaranteed response times, confidentiality etc. The fact that one could > get the same service for no charge would not matter - it might help get > Sage used in places where it is not currently used. > > Confidentiality could be an issue on public mailing lists. There are > technical issues I'd wanted to have resolved with Wireshark, which I > would have not wanted to disclose publicly, as it would have given too > much information about the use it was going to be put to. I definitely see your point. > Perhaps you should offer a premier service, where the discussions would > be in private and not public. Just don't make it too cheap. A price of > $500-$1000/year or so would seem reasonable. Make it too cheap and it > will be off-putting to companies!!! I think $1000/year sounds exactly right. It's a little more than Mathematica's $750/year for a similar service though, as I mentioned yesterday and below. >> Looking at the Mathematica web site, I don't think Mathematica comes >> with phone support, by the way, but I'm not 100% sure. It looks like >> you have to buy an add-on service called "Premier Service". I can't >> figure out how much it costs from the Mathematica website, but this >> blog post >> (http://metcaffeination.net/weblog/2008/11/22/the-next-mathematica/) >> says it costs $750/year. > > That's not untypical. > >>> * Releases happen so frequently that IT depts. cannot hope to keep up >>> with installing the latest releases. >> >> I wonder how much more often Sage releases are than iTunes releases? >> I just checked and our releases are maybe about twice as frequent as >> iTunes. I'm just pointing out that Sage isn't that unusual with its >> release schedule. It used to be 2 years ago though. > > Realistically, I think it might be worth considering an official > supported version (say once 6-12 months) with which people get paid for > support. > > Then in addition the more frequent releases. > > > I'm not sure the best way to do it, but I do agree with Bill Hart, the > frequent releases could be considered a disadvantage. Just for the record, I'm personally not going to be selling support contracts and making officially supported versions, etc., as you suggest above. That should be done by a private company that seeks to make money from Sage, and I am not going to start or run such a company. If somebody else wants to, then I would be supportive. I have my own ideas about how I personally will help Sage grow bigger and more supportive, and becoming a commercial entity is not among them. >>> * It does not have certification for various industrial applications. >> >> What does that mean? Does Mathematica or Matlab have official >> industrial application certifications? If so, should we worry about >> getting certification? > > I don't believe there is such a thing. > >>> * Users are expected to be developers >> >> What does that mean really? It doesn't seem technically meaningful to >> write "Users are expected to be developers". Expected by whom? What >> is a developer? >> >>> * No glossy printed reference manual >> >> Add "You can't purchase a printed reference manual". There is a >> glossy nice pdf reference manual, but it's not for sale. I have >> printed it out before (for an AMS meeting). We do sell a tutorial >> though, and the royalties (which are nontrivial) go to the Sage >> Foundation account. >> >>> * Few books available in shops about using Sage >> >> In my experience, shops do not have books about the Ma's either. The >> only math software one typically finds books about at say Barnes and >> Noble is "Microsoft Excel". I think I saw a Matlab for Dummies once. > > > It's a specialised product. Shops are not going to keep such books too > often. There are tons of books on Amazon for Mathematica > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mathematica&x=0&y=0 > > I have quite a collection myself! > > MATLAB > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=matlab&x=0&y=0 > > and Labview. I must admit not Maple. > > > > Dave > > > > -- William Stein Associate Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
