On May 16, 8:19 pm, William Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 12:14 PM, kilucas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On May 16, 8:04 pm, William Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:07 AM, kilucas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > On May 16, 2:32 pm, William Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 6:01 AM, kilucas <[email protected]>
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> > I'm using the VMWare Player v2.5.2 and Sage 3.4.1 on a LAN-connected
> >> >> > laptop with no firewall and am confused about how to reach the sage
> >> >> > command line.
>
> >> >> > If I run the VMWare Player from Windows, and use it to open sage_vmx
> >> >> > I'm offered a menu of 4 choices: notebook, off, manage, sage (which
> >> >> > says it's the option to reach the command, as I desire). If I type
> >> >> > "sage" (without using the "notebook" options first) lots of text
> >> >> > scrolls by, I see a brief message about the sage version and typing
> >> >> > notebook() to get a GUI, but then I'm returned to the 4 option menu
> >> >> > with a login prompt. Attempts to type mathematical expressions are
> >> >> > interpreted as attempts to login.
>
> >> >> > If I choose the "notebook" menu option (which returns me to the 4
> >> >> > option menu again) before typing "sage", I get the same effect.
>
> >> >> > So how should I reach the command line please or does any of this
> >> >> > signify a prob lem with my set up?
>
> >> >> The Sage binary evidently doesn't work at all on your computer, perhaps
> >> >> because
> >> >> it may be built with optimizations that your computer's CPU doesn't
> >> >> provide.
> >> >> If you do:
>
> >> >> login: login
>
> >> >> then type "sage" at the prompt, you'll probably get an error message,
> >> >> and if you read
> >> >> it, then it will probably explain that the Sage binary is too
> >> >> optimized for your computers
> >> >> architecture.
>
> >> >> You'll have to wait until we produce a less optimized binary (it's on
> >> >> the todo list), or you'll have to build
> >> >> one yourself for now. Alternatively of course, you can always
> >> >> usehttp://sagenb.org.
>
> >> > William
>
> >> > Thanks for the guidance - I'm certainly beginning to wonder if some
> >> > combination of my implemenattion, sage and my brain is incompatible
> >> > here ;-)
>
> >> > Just before I give up can I just check I'm trying your experiment
> >> > above correctly. When you say "login: login" is that the same as
> >> > typing "login" at the "sage login:" prompt below the 4 menu options
> >> > (notebook, off, manage, sage)?
>
> >> > And when you say to type "sage" at the prompt, I've presumed you mean
> >> > that I type "sage" in response to the subsequent password request. Is
> >> > that correct?
>
> >> > If I do this I don't get the compatibility warning that you mention.
> >> > Instead I get:
>
> >> > A line begining "Linux sage 2.6.17-12-386 ..."
> >> > A paragraph about programs in Ubuntu being free software.
> >> > A reminder there is absoluetly no warranty
> >> > A prompt that says "lo...@sage :~$"
>
> >> Type "sage" at the $ prompt, e.g.,
>
> >> lo...@sage :~$ sage
>
> > William
>
> > Very helpful. I then get the sage 3.4.1 release date etc header
> > folloowed by the following message before being returned to the
> > lo...@sage :~$ prompt
>
> > /usr/local/sage/local/bin/sage-sage: line 198 3515 Illegal
> > instruction sage-ipython "$@" -i
>
> > Is this sage's way of confirming your suspicion that my binary is
> > incompatible with my CPU?
>
> Yes.
>
> >Or is there more hope here and there's
> > something I can do to circumvent this error.
>
> There is no hope beyond you building sage from source. This is
> actually much easier than you might think. Do all of the following
> after login as "manage" and typing "sudo su".
>
> 1. Delete /usr/local/sage:
> cd /usr/local; rm -rf sage
> 2. Download sage-3.4.2.tar by typing
> wgethttp://sagemath.org/src/sage-3.4.2.tar
> 3. Extract it,
> tar xf sage-3.4.2.tar
> 4. Move it to be /usr/local/sage, and
> mv sage-3.4.2 sage
> 5. Build Sage -- this will take a few *hours* (no manual intervention)
> but will work:
> cd sage; make
Sounds like it's time to try this doesn't it?
It's been quite an interesting journey so far and I wonder if it's
worthwhile feeding some of the guidance I've been given into the
documentation at some point. For example:
- Neither the installation guide nor the tutorial (both in pdf form)
even mentions logging in.
- The readme does mention it but only as an option (and even then in
what look like Linux terms that don't mean much to someone only
familar with Windows I suspect) or for developers. So neither reason
makes a login seem important.
As I understand it, to reach the command line you:
1) use "login" at the "Sage login:" prompt
2) Use "sage" as the subsequently requested password after which
you're offered a $ prompt
3) Type sage at the dollar prompt.
Even in these forums I don't think I've seen anything that makes clear
you must enter "sage" twice.
Although my next comments might not be so easily accommodated even if
you agree with them, it might be worth contemplating solutions to the
following forms of potential confusion:
a) At the Sage Login prompt we appear to have to enter a command
("notebook"). It may be that this is a login without a password but,
when instructions are expressed in terms of entry of a command yet
you're faced with a login prompt, you feel very wary of whether your
software is behaving properly even though it is. It'd be great if
instructions or even embedded screenshots helped the user overcome
their nervousness at this point.
b) there are two uses of the term "login" here as far as sage is
concerened: as a prompt (and there are even two of these - "Sage
login" and lo...@sage :~$") and as a login id as enetered in step 1
above. This is pretty confusing unlike say a situation where you have
a login prompt but you enter a typographically different string in
response (like "admin")
c) there are two different places you enter "sage" yet they mean quite
different things. One is a password and the other is a command.
Once you know how everything works these dual uses of terms make some
sense. When they're new, they give a lot of scope for confusion
especially if software isn't quite behaving as the instructions imply
it should and you're trying to work out what's gone wrong. If, on the
other hand, the command was "StartSage" or even more precisely
"StartSageCommandLine", there'd be less scope for confusion.
I've just picked out aspects of sage setup that apply to this thread
here but coiuld just as easily have mentiooned that the networking
aspects are missing from the documentation too for example. As
example, neither NAT nor bridging are mentioned in the installation
guide, the tuitorial or the readme.
Lastly, sequential textual instructions are geat when they work. But,
when something goes wrong, you're quite lost. It's like following
driving instructions. If you once take the wrong road or if a road
layout has changed since the instructions were written, you have few
clues how to get back to where you should be. A map on the other hand
gives you a chance to see where you are and when you went wrong so you
can backtrack or fix what you now know to be the cause of the problem.
Some software instructions would provide the equivalent by showing
screenshots or describing what you should see at each stage.
I know enhancing documentation is a bit pesky but I see from Sage's
aims that good documentation is an ambition and installing sage is a
lot more complex than say installing Excel or a mathematical product
like Sciwriter so there are many more places where the user needs to
know what to do. In contrast, currently all of the above as well as
the invocation of VMWare and the sage_vmx and the use of the notebook
command are all addressed collectively for Windows in the installation
guide - the most obvious port of call for an installer - by just a
single sentence in section 2.2.
Hoping the feedback is useful and sorry to post such a long message.
But it would be absolutely great to see a project like sage becoming
successful in the sense of widely used and I think one way to do that
is to make it accessible (and hence installable) by consumer-level
users rather than technologists. And that means masking, or helping
people through, any complexities that the architecture demands.
Wishing you the very best with the project.
Kevin
>
>
>
> > Thanks
> > Kevin
>
> >> Wiliam- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> --
> William Stein
> Associate Professor of Mathematics
> University of Washingtonhttp://wstein.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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